Marriage

[Edwardo Piet]

The observation wasn't meant to state anything. Just interesting that most ppl living together state a desire to get married at some point. Of course that proves nothing.

Indeed it does prove nothing.

How about this angle:

You say you find the idea of commitment ok when factoring in children. Courtship; love; mating is anatural process designed almost solely for the purpose of reproducing wouldn't you agree?

There is no purpose to EVOLUTION if that's what you mean. Evolution just is. Genes just survive over time if they're passed on. Repoduction and survival wins.

When it comes to an individual like myself. We don't have to try and MAXIMIZE what evolution wants simply because we're a fan of science and we believe evolution is true lol! I don't care if it's natural to have kids. I still have my OWN purpose (because I don't believe that there is ANY...ULTIMATE purpose; we make our own) - that I choose. I might have kids, I might not. We shall see. I do want a long loving lasting relationship with someone though - and as long as possible. But I can't be unrealistic because despite the fact I have a 'heart' - I also have a brain. Despite the fact I have trust - I also have doubt. I think both are good and both are healthy.

That those lead naturally to commitment, follows our programming to build a base to raise children. The family unit suvives on this commitment and is a completely natural function.

Natural is what happens naturally. It's not necessarily 'better' to an individual or indeed; not necessarily better to me personally. It's natural to do lots of things that we wouldn't do these days in modern life!!

The idea of living together is anti nature.

No it isn't. I don't know a such thing. Maybe it's anti-NATURAL, perhaps. Although I'm not entirely sure whether human beings are naturally evolved polygamists or molygamists, naturally. But it's NOT anti-NATURE. As far as I know - nothing is! I mean we're still part of nature. And we naturally (as part of nature) have evolved to manipulate nature and manipulate ourselves to do UNnatural things. Sure maybe it's unnatural - but it's came OUT of nature. It may be unNATURAL but it's still nature. As far as we know the natural universe is all that exists! NATURE is all that exists! Because there's ZERO evidence of the SUPERnatural!.

My point here is that it's not like I'm violating. I don't care what's natural or unnatural when it comes to my choices about what I do or don't do. Now, what's natural is often healthy and free. But not always - some things that are natural is frowned upon in modern times! (and has been for a lot longer than that). We as humans do a lot of UNnatural things that aren't always bad....

A lot of MEDICINE is unnatural. DENTISTRY is unnatural - but these things are good.

I believe evolution in a scientific sense and as a fact. But NOT a s a philosophy! I make my own purpose about what is best for me (and others I'm close to) and I live my own life.

I don't care if commitment is natural or unnatural. It's what is healthy and best for me and others I'm close to that matters. Commitment seems weak to me.

You think you can re-invent the wheel. Hold off from the natural process and for what?

As I said. Natural isn't necessarily better. What's COMMON is not necessarily better (actually what's common can often be bad...or mediocre rather).

I think that Love is awesome but it's just often COMMONLY loaded with a load of other baggage that is NOT love - that's confusing (and love can be confusing after all) and it's just a lot of bullshit 'attachment' attached to Love quite often in the form of 'commitment'.

I think love WITHHOUT that attachment, without that baggage of 'commitment' is stronger. It's more about compassion and joy than attachment and fear of loss.

An integral part of love is trust. What I believe you're really saying is that you will never trust anyone. That sounds very sad to me. That's what hurt people do. The limit themselves. They can't be open to love because they have a reflex inside brought about by pain caused by a breaking of trust.

Part of love IS trust yes. If you love someone you're more likely to trust them and I think if you trust them you're perhaps also more likely to love them...

You say that what you believe I'm saying is that I will never trust anyone? You believe wrong. I have no idea where that statement comes from lol. I trust lots of people - just not absolutely I don't even trust MYSELF absolutely. (and with good reason, I've learned a big lesson about taking yourself and your own opinion too seriously in life. It's important to be humble and I now remain an agnostic about everything basically (and that doesn't mean 'unsure')

I have a heart and I trust people and I have trust in myself. But I also have a brain and doubt people and have doubt in myself. I think both are valuable and both are healthy. I never trust anyone ABSOLUTELY that's true. But it's just the way I am - I wll never 'let go of my brain' (again :S). And I think that's a very good think.

I never trust anyone ABSOLUTELY as I said - but that includes MYSELF too. And...everything. I am an agnostic about everything because new data can always come in - and even if something can be proved - there always could be loop-holes out there that you might not know about - and you can't improve the NON-existence of anything either of course so that makes me very agnostic about lots of things too.

But I can trust someone and myself to such a high level then it's practically absolute anyway. But I'm still not going to let go of my brain. I trust and have a heart but I also doubt and have a brain. I value both.

Again you keep banging on that commitment is only there because it's common. It's common for a reason... that reason being because it's the perfect natural step. Why would society have developed to impose on itself something anti human? It doesn't make any sense.

Well - WORRY is VERY common. Even DEPRESSION is very common. There are LOTS of unhealthy human habits that are common. I think Love is a wonderful thing (or THE most wonderful thing, along with the truth I say) - but I think commitment is just some of the baggage that often goes along with it so it's merely a common INDICATION of true Love. Because when people really love each other they often get more attached to each other and worry "What would I do WITHOUT them?" "I don't know what I'd do without you!", etc - so i think, hence - they commit. Commitment comes from attachment and fear of losing that COMMONLY comes from genuine true love....BUT if you can have the genuine true love WITHOUT the attachment in form of 'commitment' because you are self-aware of the way it works, what really matters, and you are a care-free and easy going person that still can feel a deep, profound sense of love for someone and have a long loving and meaningful relationship with them that lasts.

I think true love is still better WITHOUT commitment.

If commitment commonly implies Love that does NOT imply that Love wouldn't be better of WITHOUT if as baggage.

Two people who love each other commonly worry about each other and feel attached so they commit I think. But I don't think that means that if they loved each other WITHOUT the worry but still the care; and deeply and truly loving each other and spending great time together and having a brilliant relationship WITHOUT the attachment... -without needing to 'commit' because of attachment - if they can love each other WITHOUT all that - then I think that's stronger. Just because most people (or a great number IF not most) don't/can't do that doesn't mean it's not better.

Isn't Love better without fear? Compassion better without attachment? Joy better without commitment? I think quite often emotions attract opposite (or almost opposite) emotions that's the thing.
Hard to love someone without fearing for them for example and to still care deeply.

I see living together as self abuse. It's modern for the sake of it reasoning with no common sense backing.

I thought you're all FOR commitment? So why do you see 'living together as self abuse'? Don't you live together when you commit? Are you saying you think the self-abuse is a GOOD thing? Because you say commitment= good and living together=self abuse. And I would have thought commitment= living together so...?

I don't understand what you mean there..

'Let's put our hand in the fire' because it's different to what people have done in the past'. Different is always good, despite the complete idiocy of it.

I don't get it. It's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not there; are you?

Anyway; to answer the quite anyways - different isn't ALWAYS good and neither is similar or same ALWAYS good (or bad) lol. Natural isn't always good either as I have said. And neither is unnatural of course.

EvF