hi all

[TeslaTrooper]

I havent heard of deism, what is the concept surrounding it? I will have to have a read into it. I still find however now there are certain things I perceive as wrong even though there was a freedom growing up. I still see things such as alcohol and eating pork as something I can do, but something I shouldn't do.... When I do (especially when I drink) I do feel guilty without knowing why.

Deism is practically identical to atheistism except through the same adherance to science and observation of nature & the Universe we reach a different conclusion and feel that there is enough evidence to believe in God.

What God is, is something that has to come from you but we essentially believe that the Universe works in such a way that something does not come from nothing.

Whether it's the behaviour of the seemingly pre programmed elements and atoms or if you believe in the Big Bang your thoughts must be on how the primeval atom came into existance ...... for more info I would search Deism under google, I wouldn't pay to much mind to the wiki version though.

Desim is at least 200 years old and developed when free thinkers began questioning the bible as they saw the conflict with science, some of the founding fathers of America were Deists .... do a search on famous Deists.

Alternatively you can PM me.

Will give it a read up on google when I have a chance, cheers..

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Bacon.

(BBB-Beer and Bacon for Breakfast)

That is all.

(If you want Tesla, I can run a clinic on how to drink and eat pork at the same time without feeling guilt. Ask the folks that join hangouts I'm in. I have a lot of practice.)

This also answers some of aldinero's post too...

Well bacon im generally ok with, same with cooked italian meats. The issue is with pork chop things, ham and also gammon. The absurdity/hypocrisy of some of my upbringing was that some things were ok and other things werent. Like my father as many other non practicing muslims find, is that there is a remorse after eating pork or drinking alcohol. But for some reason bacon and salamis were exceptable, wheras ham and pork meat wasn't. Which does not make rational sense. The thing is my mum is christian, so at times it was quite comical, cooking gammon and then getting rid of the smell before my dad came home. He wasnt angry as such, but rather "displeased". Yet the next day he would be sat devouring some sausages and bacon.....

As I mentioned on the islam subtopic. I know people that drink, that will not touch pork at all. Some people who don't pray 5 times a day, but then get hostile when others don't fast 5 times a day. Which is obviously all learned behaviour perhaps coupled with some self choice that is creating a conflict within. Something I do find myself in quite often.

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And welcome to the forums. Also beware of Deism, it's slightly more credible than Theism because it doesn't have a God who intervenes in human affairs, but it's still absurdly unsupported by evidence. It's just the argument from incredulity basically.

Ignore him, I'm not having that.

I propose the fact you can't explain how something comes from nothing is an argument from "incredulity", (I don't know what that means).

What I will say is if you want to feel hollow inside, settle for a meaningless life, can't celebrate Xmas or Eid because you will be acting a hypocrite because you don't believe in God, if you want to carry on not eating pork and not drinking because it makes you a better person then don't become an atheist (already encouraging you to eat pork tut tut).

As a Deist you can have all those things plus unburden yourself from man made dogma and still have the strength and morality of a believer, we study nature and the universe using science to be closer to God so you will become more educated as part of the deal.

atheists become miserable and alone, excluded even, take Minimalist for example, he is such an angry person mad at the world, I think he really needs to be held.


...... I'm off to turn this into a commercial.

Well I dont neccessarily feel that you become hollow inside by being an athiest. I guess for someone like me is agnostic, I cannot prove that God exists, it is not a being that I can physically touch or feel. Family members or people close to me I can touch or hold (not that I go around touching random family members at christmas), and I get more of a fulfillment from this than I think I would if I truly believed in God, and lived a religious life.

I can see the reactions of love and joy on their faces and in their actions, whereas I may spend my whole life trying to please God, and live up to his standards and he may still cast me out to the fires of hell. I also still feel you can celebrate Xmas, or eid or hanuka without subscribing to the religious element. I mean Xmas in general its more of a commercial enterprise these days than a religious festival. For me the celebration is about family and getting together.

This is all based on the traditional concepts of god. I cannot comment on Deism, because I have yet to read up on it. You mention the eating of pork linked in with Deism and still being religious and moral. I dont know so much about Christianity's view on deism, but in Islam the word of God is literal and final. If you do not submit to him and follow the strict path you are a "kuffar" (like a heathen). I can imagine trying to explain deism to an imam would be quite a humourous affair.

Again without going into morality too much again because I stirred up that topic elsewere, (from an atheist/agnostic viewpoint) if you believe conventional religion to be a farce then there is no moral certainty, and thus eating pork would not be considered immoral. I guess seen as half the worlds population would not consider it a sin it would seem quite strange that something as small and simple as eating meat from one particular animal would be considered not only immoral but a mortal sin by the other half of the worlds population. That was the difficulty I mentioned in the other thread for me to grasp. In without moral certainty and without faith in religion, how can anything be immoral, as its all subjective and contextual.

Obviously others mentioned using your own judgement, but each individuals judgement will be based on their experiences, learned behaviour, and may be flawed or tainted......