RE: Atheism
July 4, 2018 at 8:25 am
(This post was last modified: July 4, 2018 at 9:19 am by SteveII.)
(July 3, 2018 at 3:10 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:(July 3, 2018 at 2:47 pm)SteveII Wrote: Religious experiences are a supernatural phenomenon.
Seems like a claim, which, by its very nature, cannot possibly have any evidence for it. (For various reasons.) So you have a claim with no evidence, which you can only abet by assuming the supernatural exists, which is begging the question. This seems to be the lynchpin of your argument, so I don't see how it can succeed. You in the past have suggested that people having foreknowledge of supernatural events is evidence in favor of people having knowledge of the supernatural nature of those events. However that doesn't follow. At best, it's an argument from ignorance, so the conclusion is not reliable. This is a fundamental epistemic problem that I don't believe you can get around. Even if people have foreknowledge of an event or attribute an event to the supernatural, that in itself isn't evidence that the event is supernatural. You would have to assume the supernatural exists in order for the conclusion to follow, so you've once again begged the question. I've heard your argument multiple times, and the fundamental objection remains the same. Since we cannot have any knowledge of the source of supernatural events by natural means -- zero, zip, nada -- the only possible source of evidence for the source of a supernatural event must itself be supernatural, and once again you've begged the question. I know you think you can get around it inductively, but I don't believe you can. Nothing you've presented suggests otherwise. Zero information is zero information, no matter how many times you add it to the mix.
Why can't we have natural effects that infer supernatural causes? The whole enterprise of science infers causes from their effects. List of effects:
1. The contents of the NT
2. The first century church (independent of the NT)
3. Individual personal experience as predicted by the NT
4. Other people we trust personal experience
5. Personal miracles (private, specific events that seemed to have a purpose against all odds)
6. Natural theology arguments