RE: Ontological Disproof of God
August 25, 2018 at 7:24 pm
(This post was last modified: August 25, 2018 at 7:31 pm by negatio.)
(August 25, 2018 at 11:24 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: If I'm understanding the OP correctly, he's appealing to Sartre's conception that we are all radically free at any moment to make any choice whatsoever (via nihilation of what we currently are). To Sartre, the reason that people follow social and other norms is what he termed bad faith, that they essentially lie to themselves about their essential freedom, and disown responsibility for behaving in ways that are consistent with social and legal mores. Apparently the OP feels that by prescribing laws to man, God is showing that he fundamentally misunderstands man's essential nature, and because He/It is mistaken, He/It cannot be God. I have two problems with this. I disagree with Sartre in ultimate conclusions about the nature of bad faith. I don't think we are radically free in the sense he maintains because we are embodied in a biological form, thus there is a dependency between consciousness and our needs which is not simply an illusion. So bad faith is transformed into an appropriate response to our carnal nature. We are conditioned by biology. I don't find either that dependency or our acting consonant with it to be in any sense bad or inauthentic, but rather the reverse. That is, when we pretend we are radically free, we are acting in bad faith with respect to our actual condition. So Sartre, I think, simply is wrong. Second, theists and theology actually embrace a doctrine of radical freedom in positing the existence of libertarian free will. Given that theologists historically have considered such freedom compatible with their beliefs, and even necessary according to some, would seem to suggest that this isn't really the problem the OP is making it out to be. According to traditional theology, people utilize their freedom in accordance with facts and reason to arrive at behaviors, including abiding by laws and social norms. Because they see this freedom as being based on an ability to respond to the facts of the world in a manner that is consistent with self interest, they do not view doing so as either bad or inauthentic. So they fundamentally disagree with Sartre about the nature of human consciousness and human will as well. I suppose one can insist that Sartre is right and they are wrong, but that's a different argument than the one that has been made. I liked Sartre a lot when I was in high school. As I grew older, I became disenchanted with his essentially moral take on radical freedom, and began to see that as problematic. I still hold that, at minimum, there are things that Sartre's view simply does not take into account, even though it gets many things right. So I don't find arguments based on Sartre's views in this area persuasive, if indeed that is what the OP is saying.Yes ! Jormungander, another direct point-blank dead-on hit ! It is absolutely and indubitably correct to impute to me subscription to what you call "radical freedom", I call it "absolute ontological freedom", which is a state of affairs wherein each one of us is absolute ----an absolute freedom-----able at any moment to totally drop everything, and, immediately head-off in a completely fresh direction, if you've got the guts, precisely like Robert De Niro kept repeating saying was absolutely incumbent upon him, given his lifestyle, in the piece of cinema named "Heat". There is absolutely no basis upon which to disagree here with Neil Mc Cauley, that's it, absolutely, that's the way it simply fucking is----he can instantly secrete nothingness between himself and any possible situation; he's an octopus, wham ! a cloud of ink and he's outa here. Absolutely nothing outside him can even remotely graze his naturally radical freedom, not even the man and his prison...Negatio.
Anyway, that's my best guess about what the OP is trying to say, as well as my objections to that, if that indeed is his argument.
(August 25, 2018 at 4:47 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:Here we go again for the umpteen time ! More argumentum ad hominem ! Leave me fucking out of it ! Attack my position, not me. Jesus fucking Christ ! Get off my back ! It does not matter what, personally, I may or may not be ! It does not matter one fucking bit how retarded, ugly, and depraved I am ! In philosophy we focus on positions, not persons, please. Thank you. Duane.(August 25, 2018 at 8:46 am)negatio Wrote: [edit]
It is a radical insult to say that someone needs to teach me effective communication ! I am a radically effective communicator, I just mistakenly presented a revolutionary ontological disproof of Deity, predicated upon nothing, to a forum without training in existential ontology.
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I wonder about your ability when it comes to self perception/self awareness. If you are the "radically effective communicator" as you profess, then others would not be addressing your communication skills and you would see more and varied forum member participation in your thread.
Your entire statement comes off as pretentious and is off putting. Not something you should strive for if you want to have a discussion.