Question for the theist.

[Edwardo Piet]

Damn U Evie!!!

No need to thank me LOL

Ok so: 1. You and I both define faith as belief without evidence right? 2. If there is reasoning to believe God actually exists then this would IOW equate to evidence right? 3. If '2.' is true and there IS reasoning to believe God actually exists and therefore IOW there's evidence of some form, then you couldn't be believing with faith or 'have faith' in God because you believe with evidence (or IOW - with good reason!) and you can't believe 'on faith' or 'with faith' when there is evidence.

What don't you get there?

1. Yep

Ok.

2. No. Unless evidence can = don't know

Evidence=don't ABSOLUTELY know, yes. But evidence = a reason to believe. So if there is reason to believe God exists then that IOW=SOME form of evidence. But that would then mean there couldn't be faith. Because you can't have faith with evidence.

You get a glimpse on the other side and reason the leap may be worth it? IOW you have some reasoning to believe on faith?(i.e completely without evidence?)

Yes

No. You cannot be RATIONALLY reasoning to believe in God ON FAITH. Because whatever that rational reasoning IS if it IS at all valid with regards to belief in God actually existing then it WOULD count as SOME form of evidence so you CAN'T make the leap of faith because faith it WITHOUT evidence.

But if the reasons are at all valid for taking to leap on faith then they would somehow give reason to believe that God exists. They would be some form of evidence.

Evidence = non provable

But evidence is by definition a form of EVIDENCE it doesn't have to be PROOF.

All I'm saying is that IF this reasoning you speak of to believe in God IS at all valid reasoning to believe he actually exists THEN it WOULD count as SOME form of evidence and hence cancel out the faith.

If your reasoning ISN'T valid then you're just believing irrationally.

Is there any way you can work that out to make sense? I mean, make the faith essential and the evidence impossible? This is the equation you're dealing with here.

"Faith" cannot be essential because it's irrational by definition. Because if you DO have rational reasons to believe in the existence of something then it IOW counts as evidence. If you DON'T have rational reasons to believe then of course it DOESN'T count as evidence so it has to be "faith" - and NOT having rational

EvF