(November 9, 2018 at 7:33 am)Khemikal Wrote:(November 7, 2018 at 7:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Rituals that lend to a sense of unity and continuity, such as when Jews light sabbath candles at the same time around the world every Friday and have for hundreds of years.-and many people also celebrate thanksgiving. All of society is built atop rituals that lend to a sense of unity and continuity. Lighting candles on a sabbath is a representative of that set.
You make a good point about some secular rituals. I suppose it has felt more special to me partly because of a belief that God has had something to do with the rituals.
Quote:Structure: A community that has a structure in place for celebrating and mourning. There's a detailed plan laid out for when a loved one dies. The plan helps the family know what to do and how to grieve and heal. The plan also involves the community, so they are there to support you.Here again I fail to see how judaism offers structure in some way that the entirety of human culture and society doesn't?
There is no common text for those without belief. There is no secular plan prescribed for an individual or a community to follow throughout life like there is for a religious group (if there is, please do share it because I'd find that very helpful). If a member of a synagogue has a health crisis, they have a whole throng of people ready to offer support. When a parent dies, there is a structure and process both the individual and his congregation understands and follows. The mourner follows laws and practices like sitting shiva.
Quote:Prayer and Scriptures: Hope and comfort/soothing in times of stress. I can find some comfort in nature and other things, but nothing so far is coming close to the way I felt/believed when I believed in God.The things you were taught to believe when you believed in god are likely the cause of that difficulty, themselves.
Likely very true.
I understand that you get these things from judaism, I was wondering more about things that you couldn't get elsewhere. Many of us engage in rituals that lend to a sense of unity and continuity, many of us have structure in our lives, all of us have ways of finding comfort in times of stress. That strongly suggests that you could get all of the above elsewhere, you just don't.
I don't know how to replace having a "ready-made" throng of supportive people with a common belief and practice.
If I/we were being honest...though.... you already do, and always have, even when you were a believer you availed yourself of secular rituals, unity, continuity, and structure...and all of the stuff you just mentioned has to do with people doing things...the religious import is literally being manufactured out of secular moving parts. I get the yearning for community, what I don't get is the conflation of community with religion, as though these things common to any community of people could only be gotten from judaism. It doesn't seem like god was doing anything up above, you were being comforted by the tribe.
I'm trying to think of a way to explain. Ok, every couple of weeks I've been getting together with other atheists over dinner or at someone's home. There have been a couple of members who have had heart attacks, and despite having been members of the group for a long time, to my knowledge the group didn't agree to go support them, visit them in the hospital, bring them food at home, or ask how else they could help. An individual or two popped on over, but that appears to be it. I think I'm wanting atheists to be a unified support network, and it just doesn't work that way.
Go find a new tribe - or just stay in the one that you're already in, since they're providing all of the above? It doesn't actually matter whether or not god is real for any of that..right?
Where do I find a new tribe? I'd like to. And yes, the problem is it DOES matter to me whether god is real. When I went to synagogue at the high holidays a couple of months ago, the God part of things felt false, so I'd have to be there, saying things I no longer believe in and doing so just for community and support for when I need it. When I realized that, I reviewed my religious beliefs of the past and realized that I just can't believe anymore.
I'm in a kind of no man's land right now, trying to figure out how to replace certain aspects that helped me--can't go forward, and can't go back. I think emotional resiliency is partly determined by one's biology and mental health in general, but also developed similar to a muscle. I've spent my life leaning on this crutch, and I haven't had to stand on my own. If you've been an atheist since childhood, you've had to develop a certain amount of ability to self-soothe. It's made you a lot tougher because you HAD to be. How can I be strong enough and confident enough to stand on my own? Is there a way I can expedite the process?
Thanks, Khemikal. I know I sound like I'm going around in circles, and it feels like it sometimes, but this discussion is helping a great deal.
I said to the sun, tell me about the Big Bang.
The sun said, 'It hurts to become.'
~Andrea Gibson
The sun said, 'It hurts to become.'
~Andrea Gibson