RE: Science is inherently atheistic
December 2, 2018 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2018 at 11:17 am by Angrboda.)
(December 2, 2018 at 2:40 am)Belaqua Wrote:(December 2, 2018 at 2:28 am)Minimalist Wrote: Wait until you have been listening to them throw out the same bullshit for 9 years and then show me how tolerant you are.
I'm too old to tolerate fools gladly.
I've been posting on forums like this for at least that long.
When I started, I was repeating the usual atheist shibboleths. After an enormous amount of effort and study, I have learned about wonderfully valuable and beautiful things that come to us through the religious traditions of the world. If I had continued to mock, I would have missed out on a great deal.
I am glad that all the simple-minded bullshit I posted at the beginning has been deleted.
In Japanese, the same character is used for "divide" and "understand." 分ける means divide and 分かる means understand. Understanding comes in large part through learning to divide. Separating the dumb from the great, understanding why the former should be ignored, and the latter admired.
Well goody for you. As with mocking, your rationalizations here appear to have the same goal, to please yourself about your own behavior. So you're trying to accomplish the same thing, feeling good, you just differ on what you consider the best tactics for accomplishing that and related goals, such as behavior shaping. You are engaged in the same enterprise, just using different tactics. Your choice of said tactics are motivated by certain things, as are the tactics of those who behave differently. Not accusing you of such, but common objections to the tactics are that they are uncivil or are badly motivated. These are nonsense objections. The motivations aren't bad, even if they are different. That would be a value judgement which eventually leads to an ipse dixit justification. The other objection, which many people suggest, is that mocking is not effective at accomplishing the goal, which is presumptuously posited as changing minds. That's not the only goal, nor is it necessarily true that mocking is not effective in changing the behavior of belief and behaviors associated with belief, which, not coincidentally, include promoting such beliefs, something mocking is effective at curbing as anybody engaged in contemporary politics knows all too well. So this, too, leads to an ipse dixit assertion of values about what the goals of discourse are and how best to achieve them.
So, while these may not be your reasons, and I'm glad that you've found something valuable in religion, I don't see your story persuasive. Your inability to criticize and mock the negative aspects of religion while at the same time acquiring an understanding of the positive aspects of religion, if true, would simply be a failure on your part due to your lack of ability, not due to any faults with criticism and mocking. The things that you recognize as positive and beautiful about religion may not be such, or they may be outweighed by the negative. That someone chooses to address the negative and ignore the positive is not a fault, it is simply a choice that is based on their values. You have different values and you find the positive aspects of religion valuable and worthy of representation alongside the negative; that is simply a set of value judgements and choices you have made. That others have different values and have made different choices doesn't make them wrong for having those values and embracing those choices unless one assumes the narcissistic conclusion that your values and choices are the right and proper ones, and anyone who departs from them is therefore wrong and bad. I hope that is not what you're saying.
Beyond that, I haven't seen where you've provided a legitimate defense of your opinions about mocking, but then, it's early morning, I'm tired, and I composed this on the fly without really an intent to engage these subjects. I haven't really been following the arguments in this thread closely, so I may have missed some context or simply misread your post and misinterpreted your points. If I have, please straighten me out. Failing that, from where I stand you haven't delivered a legitimate criticism of mocking the religious.
![[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/zf86M5L7/extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg)