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[Serious] The Good
#44
RE: The Good
(March 29, 2019 at 1:28 pm)Yonadav Wrote: Most acts of man are both good and evil. There is a little bit of evil in pretty much everything that is 'good', and there is a little bit of good in everything that is 'bad'. In the earthly realm, things aren't entirely good or entirely bad. There is a correct measure for everything. The correct measure is not necessarily a constant.

Every person has a capacity for evil that is equal to their capacity for good. They have a capacity for good that is equal to their capacity for evil. So Hitler could have been one of the greatest people in world history, had he chosen the better part of his nature. We have the yetzer hara (dark side) and the yetzer hatov (our better nature). There is a story of some students of a great Rabbi saying that their Rabbi had no yetzer hara. Another Rabbi objected, saying that they were insulting their Rabbi. To say that someone has no yetzer hara is to say that they are a zero, a doormat. Our dark side motivates us to do great things. Our better nature moderates the ambition of the dark side.

I like this a lot. Partly because I always jump at any chance to quote William Blake:

Thou art good, and Thou alone;
Nor may the sinner cast one stone.
To be good only, is to be
A God or else a Pharisee.


(With apologies to the historical, non-symbolically-used Pharisees.) 

It helps to think about the good actions we do, which nonetheless have a component of pride or self-satisfaction -- but which on balance really are good for the world. 

I think Plato says that everything we do, we do it because we think we are doing good. When we choose to do evil it's because we've made a mistake. I think that if I eat all the donuts in the box it'll make me happy. Experience should have taught me by now that in fact I'll feel terrible afterwards. Yet I still go on trying. 

Not to compare donuts to Hitler, but people's evil probably often can be explained as mistaken good. Or perhaps selfishly-calculated good, when one is ignorant of the pain of others. 

If you'll forgive a sectarian jump: those who like to imagine God as the Good itself imagine Jesus as the one exception to the rule that humans are a mixture of good and bad. Even those of us who don't accept him as an incarnation of something can imagine him as a sort of model or place-holder for what people would do if they really were all good. And perhaps more importantly, what this world would do to someone like that.

(March 30, 2019 at 5:47 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(March 30, 2019 at 5:15 am)Belaqua Wrote: The part you added later:

Acorns in space didn't evolve that way.

I'll get back to you another time, as you have replied immediately after me, but a couple notes.  Acorns evolving and thus not existing in space is a contingent fact.  If final causes are simply a contingent fact, then your entire first paragraph about the end result not being "mere coincidence" is completely destroyed, because it is nothing more than mere coincidence that acorns exist in the one way other than the other.  Final causes serve no explanatory role over and above efficient causes.  Note specifically that in the first paragraph you quote, Aristotle asks why teeth "regularly" grow one way rather than the other.  Thus Aristotles conception of final causes rests on confusing statistical norms with other kinds of norms.  In a different universe, the teeth would not "regularly" grow in that fashion.  If the "cause" of one result occurring rather than the other is the result of existing in one set of circumstances rather than the other, then final causes aren't doing any explanation at all, as they don't in fact explain anything that isn't explained by efficient causes and the contingent facts.

As to the second point, which rests primarily upon Aristotle's conception of being and existence as in itself good.  In that, Aristotle is simply wrong.  There is no objective reason to prefer existence to non-existence, only subjective ones.  Therefore Aristotle's entire framework collapses due to a false assumption.

I think you'd do well to stop quoting others and try to do some of your own thinking, as the answers to the objections you quoted in reply to my prior post were contained in the post you replied to with them.  If you're just making an argument from authority, then this is going to get old very fast.  If you're not going to actually respond to what I've said and engage the points that I've made, this is likely going to lose my interest.

If everything existed in another universe, yes, the final causes would be different, probably. But we live in this one. 

If some strange person moved all the acorns to space, it would just mean that they would never have the chance to reach the final cause for which they evolved. Yes, that's contingent. And changes nothing. 

Final Causes don't consist of statistical norms, the regularity of the structure of the teeth are as they are because they serve the animal well. 

As for my not thinking for myself, that's just insulting and not fair. If you're going to end these posts with little personal lectures there's no point in continuing. I provided the quote to show that I am not saying some random thing, that what I say is backed up. If you want to explain why it's wrong that's fine, but please do so without making rude and false insinuations. 

As for your assertion that "...Aristotle's conception of being and existence as in itself good.  In that, Aristotle is simply wrong.  There is no objective reason to prefer existence to non-existence, only subjective ones." I look forward for your argument on this. But please address the actual argument made by these people, and not your own subjective feeling.
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Messages In This Thread
The Good - by Belacqua - March 29, 2019 at 5:41 am
RE: The Good - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 29, 2019 at 6:09 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 29, 2019 at 6:15 am
RE: The Good - by Acrobat - March 29, 2019 at 9:22 am
RE: The Good - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 29, 2019 at 6:27 am
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 29, 2019 at 7:47 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 29, 2019 at 8:21 am
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 29, 2019 at 9:47 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 29, 2019 at 6:37 pm
RE: The Good - by arewethereyet - March 29, 2019 at 6:39 pm
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 4:41 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 30, 2019 at 5:15 am
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 5:47 am
RE: The Good - by brewer - March 30, 2019 at 8:01 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 30, 2019 at 6:38 pm
RE: The Good - by brewer - March 30, 2019 at 8:03 pm
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 30, 2019 at 8:12 pm
RE: The Good - by Gawdzilla Sama - March 29, 2019 at 8:56 am
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 29, 2019 at 10:04 am
RE: The Good - by brewer - March 29, 2019 at 10:15 am
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 29, 2019 at 10:18 am
RE: The Good - by brewer - March 29, 2019 at 10:31 am
RE: The Good - by LastPoet - March 29, 2019 at 12:02 pm
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 29, 2019 at 6:40 pm
RE: The Good - by arewethereyet - March 29, 2019 at 9:14 pm
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 29, 2019 at 9:17 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 29, 2019 at 12:09 pm
RE: The Good - by downbeatplumb - March 29, 2019 at 12:11 pm
RE: The Good - by LadyForCamus - March 29, 2019 at 12:24 pm
RE: The Good - by Acrobat - March 29, 2019 at 12:55 pm
RE: The Good - by Fake Messiah - March 29, 2019 at 1:02 pm
RE: The Good - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 29, 2019 at 1:33 pm
RE: The Good - by Yonadav - March 29, 2019 at 1:28 pm
RE: The Good - by brewer - March 29, 2019 at 3:23 pm
RE: The Good - by Stoneheart - March 29, 2019 at 6:46 pm
RE: The Good - by Fake Messiah - March 29, 2019 at 11:32 pm
RE: The Good - by Stoneheart - March 30, 2019 at 12:46 am
RE: The Good - by Fake Messiah - March 30, 2019 at 1:23 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 30, 2019 at 5:54 am
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 6:15 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 30, 2019 at 6:36 am
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 6:48 am
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 29, 2019 at 3:44 pm
RE: The Good - by Yonadav - March 29, 2019 at 4:11 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 29, 2019 at 4:14 pm
RE: The Good - by brewer - March 29, 2019 at 5:09 pm
RE: The Good - by Yonadav - March 29, 2019 at 5:47 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 29, 2019 at 10:07 pm
RE: The Good - by brewer - March 29, 2019 at 10:27 pm
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 29, 2019 at 10:59 pm
RE: The Good - by WinterHold - March 30, 2019 at 2:57 am
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 30, 2019 at 6:27 pm
RE: The Good - by WinterHold - March 30, 2019 at 10:04 pm
RE: The Good - by Belacqua - March 31, 2019 at 12:56 am
RE: The Good - by WinterHold - April 3, 2019 at 6:38 am
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 9:51 am
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 6:35 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 6:42 pm
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 6:47 pm
RE: The Good - by Acrobat - March 30, 2019 at 7:26 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 6:54 pm
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 6:57 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 7:00 pm
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 7:21 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 7:25 pm
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 30, 2019 at 7:33 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: The Good - by Acrobat - March 30, 2019 at 8:56 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 7:41 pm
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2019 at 9:06 pm
RE: The Good - by Angrboda - March 31, 2019 at 1:48 am
RE: The Good - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2019 at 9:37 am



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