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Friendly Atheism
#60
RE: Friendly Atheism
(September 5, 2019 at 6:47 pm)mcc1789 Wrote:
(September 5, 2019 at 3:15 pm)Objectivist Wrote: I do disagree.  It can't be rational because reason is only compatible with the primacy of existence principle.  Theism assumes the primacy of consciousness.

Can you explain why? I'm not very familiar with Objectivism. Others here likely aren't either.
Hi,

If an idea contradicts a fact of reality, then that idea is false because contradictions cannot exist.  If it's false then to believe it is irrational.  The primacy of existence principle identifies a fundamental truth, that of the relationship between consciousness and it's objects.  This relationship is the most basic issue in philosophy and it is both knowable by direct perception and it is rationally undeniable.  This relationship is also contextually fixed, in that the subject and object cannot change places.  One would have to accept it's truth in order to try and deny it.  In denying its truth, one would be tacitly relying on its truth. That's because anyone who makes any statement of fact is implicitly saying that the state of affairs, in reality, is this, independent of anyone's ideas to the contrary.   To deny it would be to contradict one's self; The primacy of existence is false independent of anyone's ideas to the contrary.  You see?

This principle lies at the root of all knowledge, whether one identifies it explicitly, as Objectivism does, or if it remains only implicit.  It is a primary and inescapable fact of reality.  It's also known as the principle of objectivity.  It's the root of the concept objectivity.  

Now, what does it say?:  The objects of consciousness exist and are what they are and do what they do independent of anyone's conscious activity.  Objects are the things we are aware of and the subject is any conscientiousness that is aware of them.  That's a fancy way of saying that wishing doesn't make things so, i.e.,  Consciousness is metaphysically passive.

Now reason, being a kind of conscious activity, identifies the facts, it doesn't create them or alter them.  The five dollar bill in your wallet with remain a five dollar bill no matter how much you scrunch your eyes tight and believe that it will turn into a hundred dollar bill.  Facts are absolutes that don't care about your feelings. therefore reason presupposes the primacy of existence and is incompatible with the primacy of consciousness. Those who hold that the subject of consciousness holds primacy over its objects, such as every version of theism I've ever heard about, reverse this relationship. They hold that consciousness has primacy over existence, the subject holds primacy over its objects. Therefore they hold that in essence, wishing does make it so, e.g., "If ye have the faith (a type of conscious activity) of a mustard seed, ye can say to the mountain (an object) move from there to over there and the mountain will move and nothing will be impossible to you."  Matthew 17:20.

Well, that's the bare bones, I hope it helps.  For a further explanation do a google search for David Kelley primacy of existence.
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Messages In This Thread
Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - August 30, 2019 at 7:54 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 30, 2019 at 8:10 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 30, 2019 at 8:15 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Anomalocaris - August 30, 2019 at 9:28 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Acrobat - August 30, 2019 at 11:10 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Grandizer - August 30, 2019 at 9:12 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 30, 2019 at 9:40 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 30, 2019 at 10:12 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - August 30, 2019 at 10:24 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by vulcanlogician - August 30, 2019 at 11:02 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 30, 2019 at 11:08 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by vulcanlogician - August 31, 2019 at 12:54 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - August 31, 2019 at 1:49 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - August 30, 2019 at 11:22 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - August 31, 2019 at 5:23 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 11:11 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - August 31, 2019 at 12:56 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 31, 2019 at 7:36 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 31, 2019 at 7:47 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 31, 2019 at 8:04 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 31, 2019 at 9:04 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Gwaithmir - August 31, 2019 at 10:34 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 31, 2019 at 12:07 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 12:07 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 31, 2019 at 12:12 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 12:38 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 2:40 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 2:47 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 3:07 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 3:28 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 4:41 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 5:07 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 31, 2019 at 6:13 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 6:32 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 31, 2019 at 7:40 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 8:38 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 9:02 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 9:05 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 9:08 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Grandizer - August 31, 2019 at 9:49 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 10:03 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - August 31, 2019 at 10:03 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 10:08 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Grandizer - August 31, 2019 at 10:14 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - August 31, 2019 at 11:22 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by The Valkyrie - September 1, 2019 at 2:09 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 6:42 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by no one - August 31, 2019 at 2:06 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 31, 2019 at 3:46 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - August 31, 2019 at 5:58 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 31, 2019 at 6:17 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Grandizer - August 31, 2019 at 6:47 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by John 6IX Breezy - August 31, 2019 at 6:52 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Grandizer - August 31, 2019 at 7:53 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - August 31, 2019 at 8:13 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by brewer - September 1, 2019 at 9:05 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Objectivist - September 5, 2019 at 3:15 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 5, 2019 at 6:47 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Objectivist - September 6, 2019 at 1:56 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - September 6, 2019 at 3:44 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Objectivist - September 6, 2019 at 7:23 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - September 6, 2019 at 7:37 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - September 7, 2019 at 12:43 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 7, 2019 at 4:06 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Objectivist - September 7, 2019 at 5:18 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 8, 2019 at 2:39 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - September 8, 2019 at 3:44 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 8, 2019 at 5:50 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - September 8, 2019 at 6:13 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 8, 2019 at 2:59 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - September 8, 2019 at 6:42 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 9, 2019 at 7:22 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Grandizer - September 8, 2019 at 11:32 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 6, 2019 at 7:20 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Objectivist - September 7, 2019 at 7:41 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Belacqua - September 7, 2019 at 6:58 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Objectivist - September 7, 2019 at 11:12 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by EgoDeath - September 5, 2019 at 5:05 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 6, 2019 at 9:27 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Mister Agenda - September 7, 2019 at 11:38 am
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Fireball - September 7, 2019 at 4:16 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by SlowCalculations - September 7, 2019 at 4:26 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Grandizer - September 8, 2019 at 7:10 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by Succubus - September 9, 2019 at 10:16 pm
RE: Friendly Atheism - by mcc1789 - September 9, 2019 at 10:41 pm



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