Alpha Course Week 2 17th October
First of all the meal was very good. Spaghetti bolognese with garlic bread - my second favourite – best being chicken vindaloo. People were very friendly, coming up to me, chatting – perhaps the grapevine had communicated that I didn't feel particularly welcomed last week. Anyway brilliant food and I got seconds – good chat with the people on each side of me about children, jobs etc. they are nice people.
The talk.
Same as last week no video of Nicky Gumbel , think that's how the rest of the course will be. Talk from the vicar was about “Why did Jesus die”. It was difficult to see how this was any different from the regular Sunday sermon at this church apart from the fact that it followed the topic prescribed in the alpha course schedule. Jesus took on our sins and the crucifixion took those away allowing you to enter God's grace (i.e. heaven) provided you believe in him. Bit of description about how awful death by this method was – although the vicar got a couple of things wrong – saying that the nails went through the hands (should be the wrists) and a sword pierced His side (isn't it a spear ?) .
The group session.
There were more people this week, I counted 25 in total – about 11 in my group . The group I was in had a few newcomers. As last week I resolved not to say anything – at least to start with as I didn't want to dominate things and I am not a naturally gregarious person. The vicar started with the question of the crucifixion and did anyone have any comments or difficulties with it. Embarrassed silence – everyone looking around – some looking at me but I kept my peace - eventually someone commented that they were worried God would not keep on forgiving them even though they continued to sin – they were reassured by the vicar that forgiveness would keep coming. Another person commented that it was nice that someone had given that sacrifice for them – I thought this was standard stuff for a regular church bible study meeting. Bit more pregnant pauses. Eventually after about 15 mins I asked about sin and what everybody thought it meant – was a sin the same as a crime or a wrong (like being unkind to someone). Pointed out that some things that might be regarded as sin - like slavery – were not regarded as sin in the old testament, whilst other things like eating pork were once a sin but no longer considered as such. This started a discussion where some people said it was your actions that were sinful but others that thinking of things like adultery were sinful. Did not reach any definite conclusion but had a reasonable discussion where people were joining in and talking about stuff. Then went to the topic of the week “Why did Jesus die?”. I asked “What was the actual sacrifice that God made?. I said “ If Jesus is the Son part of the holy trinity then he is co-eternal in Christian doctrine (I've done my homework) so he has existed for all eternity. Therefore he has always known that he will come to earth and occupy a human body for 30 years and then be crucified, go to hell for 3 days (a place which he himself had made) re-animate his dead crucified body and ascend to heaven to be Lord of the universe for eternity again – where's the sacrifice?” Apart from the undeniable agony of a crucifixion death doesn't seem much else. Some one mentioned the torture of living a human life without his using god-like powers, but I countered that he performed miracles.
I asked why there had to be a crucifixion. Couldn't Jesus have come to earth, done the miracles, sermon on the mount, last supper etc. then said “The Romans are coming to arrest me but they will not find me – I am going to my father - be nice to each other and I will return one day (as he ascended into Heaven).” that way you could still have the condition that you have to believe in Jesus but cut out the nasty crucifixion bit. The answer from the vicar was that the crucifixion was the heart of being a Christian. That seemed like circular logic to me – we are Christians because of the crucifixion and the crucifixion made us Christians. I was unable to say this because the vicar was in full flow and would not allow me to interrupt him – there was a bit of a stand-off before I backed down and he continued.
Subsequently the father from the last session spoke and accused me of only wanting to “dis-prove” things and being “hard-hearted with respect to God” - I took that to mean being hard hearted – thanks a lot. I was also accused of having a closed mind and not being “open” to God. As always – it is the non-believers fault that they are not willing to receive God who is “desperate” for us to believe in him. Apparently – as I pointed out – the omnipotent being cannot get past someones unwillingness to buy it. Another thing that kept coming up was that I had “chosen” not to believe – although I had pointed out several times that belief is not a matter of choice ( I used the example of the moon made of cheese - you cannot force yourself to believe it even if you wanted to) but the matter kept coming up as if I had not spoken. I have “chosen” not to believe and God cannot get through to me because I have closed my mind – so it's all my fault.
We were getting to the end of the session and the vicar – I think as a sort of closing statement – started on a story from his past. It very quickly became apparent that his story was a version of Pascals' wager – if you believe in God but are wrong you have lost little – if you believe and are right you have won everything. I interrupted and said this is so flawed I could talk for an hour pointing out the flaws in the argument (I will not go into them now) . Before I was able to go further he warned me to let him finish, I started to speak and there was an awkward moment when he got quite heated and almost demanded to continue without interruption “No! I will continue!” so I backed down again.
That was the end of the session. I loitered around for a little while hoping that maybe there would be some after time chatting but everyone had gone into their groups talking and no one approached me so I just left without saying goodbye to anyone. I felt that I really am the enemy now. What I really remember from this meeting was the numerous times that I had 9 or 10 pairs of eyes on me with all their heads nodding in agreement whilst someone was speaking about some aspect of their belief directly to me. Talk about them and us ! Every other member of this discussion group seemed to be a fully paid up card carrying member of this church or another church. Almost expecting to be asked not to come again but until that happens I will continue to turn up.
Just like last week I am a bit disheartened – especially after the good food and nice chats with some nice people.
That's all. If there is interest I will do the same again next week.
Regards
pgrimes15
First of all the meal was very good. Spaghetti bolognese with garlic bread - my second favourite – best being chicken vindaloo. People were very friendly, coming up to me, chatting – perhaps the grapevine had communicated that I didn't feel particularly welcomed last week. Anyway brilliant food and I got seconds – good chat with the people on each side of me about children, jobs etc. they are nice people.
The talk.
Same as last week no video of Nicky Gumbel , think that's how the rest of the course will be. Talk from the vicar was about “Why did Jesus die”. It was difficult to see how this was any different from the regular Sunday sermon at this church apart from the fact that it followed the topic prescribed in the alpha course schedule. Jesus took on our sins and the crucifixion took those away allowing you to enter God's grace (i.e. heaven) provided you believe in him. Bit of description about how awful death by this method was – although the vicar got a couple of things wrong – saying that the nails went through the hands (should be the wrists) and a sword pierced His side (isn't it a spear ?) .
The group session.
There were more people this week, I counted 25 in total – about 11 in my group . The group I was in had a few newcomers. As last week I resolved not to say anything – at least to start with as I didn't want to dominate things and I am not a naturally gregarious person. The vicar started with the question of the crucifixion and did anyone have any comments or difficulties with it. Embarrassed silence – everyone looking around – some looking at me but I kept my peace - eventually someone commented that they were worried God would not keep on forgiving them even though they continued to sin – they were reassured by the vicar that forgiveness would keep coming. Another person commented that it was nice that someone had given that sacrifice for them – I thought this was standard stuff for a regular church bible study meeting. Bit more pregnant pauses. Eventually after about 15 mins I asked about sin and what everybody thought it meant – was a sin the same as a crime or a wrong (like being unkind to someone). Pointed out that some things that might be regarded as sin - like slavery – were not regarded as sin in the old testament, whilst other things like eating pork were once a sin but no longer considered as such. This started a discussion where some people said it was your actions that were sinful but others that thinking of things like adultery were sinful. Did not reach any definite conclusion but had a reasonable discussion where people were joining in and talking about stuff. Then went to the topic of the week “Why did Jesus die?”. I asked “What was the actual sacrifice that God made?. I said “ If Jesus is the Son part of the holy trinity then he is co-eternal in Christian doctrine (I've done my homework) so he has existed for all eternity. Therefore he has always known that he will come to earth and occupy a human body for 30 years and then be crucified, go to hell for 3 days (a place which he himself had made) re-animate his dead crucified body and ascend to heaven to be Lord of the universe for eternity again – where's the sacrifice?” Apart from the undeniable agony of a crucifixion death doesn't seem much else. Some one mentioned the torture of living a human life without his using god-like powers, but I countered that he performed miracles.
I asked why there had to be a crucifixion. Couldn't Jesus have come to earth, done the miracles, sermon on the mount, last supper etc. then said “The Romans are coming to arrest me but they will not find me – I am going to my father - be nice to each other and I will return one day (as he ascended into Heaven).” that way you could still have the condition that you have to believe in Jesus but cut out the nasty crucifixion bit. The answer from the vicar was that the crucifixion was the heart of being a Christian. That seemed like circular logic to me – we are Christians because of the crucifixion and the crucifixion made us Christians. I was unable to say this because the vicar was in full flow and would not allow me to interrupt him – there was a bit of a stand-off before I backed down and he continued.
Subsequently the father from the last session spoke and accused me of only wanting to “dis-prove” things and being “hard-hearted with respect to God” - I took that to mean being hard hearted – thanks a lot. I was also accused of having a closed mind and not being “open” to God. As always – it is the non-believers fault that they are not willing to receive God who is “desperate” for us to believe in him. Apparently – as I pointed out – the omnipotent being cannot get past someones unwillingness to buy it. Another thing that kept coming up was that I had “chosen” not to believe – although I had pointed out several times that belief is not a matter of choice ( I used the example of the moon made of cheese - you cannot force yourself to believe it even if you wanted to) but the matter kept coming up as if I had not spoken. I have “chosen” not to believe and God cannot get through to me because I have closed my mind – so it's all my fault.
We were getting to the end of the session and the vicar – I think as a sort of closing statement – started on a story from his past. It very quickly became apparent that his story was a version of Pascals' wager – if you believe in God but are wrong you have lost little – if you believe and are right you have won everything. I interrupted and said this is so flawed I could talk for an hour pointing out the flaws in the argument (I will not go into them now) . Before I was able to go further he warned me to let him finish, I started to speak and there was an awkward moment when he got quite heated and almost demanded to continue without interruption “No! I will continue!” so I backed down again.
That was the end of the session. I loitered around for a little while hoping that maybe there would be some after time chatting but everyone had gone into their groups talking and no one approached me so I just left without saying goodbye to anyone. I felt that I really am the enemy now. What I really remember from this meeting was the numerous times that I had 9 or 10 pairs of eyes on me with all their heads nodding in agreement whilst someone was speaking about some aspect of their belief directly to me. Talk about them and us ! Every other member of this discussion group seemed to be a fully paid up card carrying member of this church or another church. Almost expecting to be asked not to come again but until that happens I will continue to turn up.
Just like last week I am a bit disheartened – especially after the good food and nice chats with some nice people.
That's all. If there is interest I will do the same again next week.
Regards
pgrimes15
