The Struggle to do Good

[Paleophyte]

Whether morality is objective or subjective is not a question of whether god exists.

Sure it is because without God there cannot be objective moral values and duties.

This is a fascinating assertion that's patently false. Morality is little more than the mathematics of social interaction and no less objective.

You can demonstrate this quite simply using the jolly, if somewhat extreme example that The Grand Nudger provided of "skull fucking your neighbour to death." In any society where that behaviour is the norm you quite quickly end up with the majority a pile of truly gruesome corpses and a small minority end up dying from gangrene courtesy of the bone splinters in their dicks. Clearly that isn't a stable society, so any society that fails to evolve morals against skull fucking your neighbour to death simply ceases to exist. That's the very simple, objective, 2+2=4 reason for it that requires no deity whatsoever.

A very quick series of thought experiments reveals that the same principle holds for murder, theft, adultery, and any behaviour that is a net negative for the in group.

A quick study of the Bible shows that the morality presented therein is entirely subjective, exactly what you'd expect a human society to evolve. There are huge lists of proscriptions, but only as they apply to the Israelites. Thou shalt not murder, steal from, or commit adultery with the in group. There are then entire books exalting the conquest, rape, murder, enslavement of pretty much everybody that the Israelites encounter. The morality of the Bible is demonstrably subjective because it would have to apply to everybody if it were objective, not just god's chosen people.