RE: If I met Him...
January 12, 2021 at 10:01 am
(This post was last modified: January 12, 2021 at 10:31 am by zwanzig.)
(January 10, 2021 at 7:24 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: Why do you think you have this either/or approach? You seem to want the term God to describe something unrealistic, otherwise anything that begins to sound realistic you will no longer give the label of God to.
In my observations, scripture uses many different labels for "that being" of which God is just one. For example, Rock, Father, Healer, Shepherd, Potter, King, etc. Each label carries with it some particular aspect that describes him, without necessarily confining him to it (God isn't a literal rock). In many ways the term God probably serves the same function. It is as artificial as the term king, and yet it helps us understand his nature in some way. So personally, calling that being an extraterrestrial is acceptable insofar as that term is compatible with the biblical description.
As far as worship is concerned. My understanding is that it is offered because of what he did (creator, redeemer), not necessarily because of who he is (divine being).
Why call it/him God, then? If it could just be an extraterrestrial, then we don't need to elevate it to this status that implies divinity. If it is a real world, super-powered being, or using technology too advanced for our understanding, it isn't a God. I am wondering what your standard for divinity is, if you'll indulge me. I know there's been some discussion going on in this thread; I apologize, I'm still reading and catching up.
That is an interesting point. I reject the "redeemer" part because I don't find that compelling at all. God created a set of rules that he knew we couldn't obey without him doing something to help us. So he kills himself on the altar and now we owe him? Or do you believe as the Mormons do, that God is a being like man, beholden to a set of universal laws and that he didn't create sin when he created the universe? It's either he foresaw our flawed nature and now it's extortion or he is bound by laws greater than him. In which case...I am not going to worship somebody stuck in the same wheel as me. You can either absolve me of everything with a wave of your hand, or you can't. There is something sinister and manipulative in the story of Christ that points to a cruel being, not a redeeming one. And as others stated earlier in the thread and I agree; I will rebel and resent such a being, if it exists at all.
Creator is difficult though. Because I agree, that is something worship worthy. Or at least owed reverence. However I think it ties back to proving he exists again and describing the parameters of that creation. How do I know he even wants to be worshipped or not? For all I know, this being vomitted me out after a drunk frat party in their version of reality. He wandered off and doesn't even realize I am here. Like, the continued relationship type thing. You just drop me and leave me? I have not had contact with such a being to truly know that my creation had a purpose. You know?
(January 10, 2021 at 8:22 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: What? Do you need to speak directly to members here in the forum to confirm they're not disguised robots.. for example?
As far as I know, it's not mentioned anywhere in any religious text that the Abrahamic god needs our worship. It's certainly not the case in Islam. The word need is a figment of your imagination, it's not in the article of faith of any serious religious person. If it were the case, if an all powerful deity somewhat needs every human being to worship it i.e. depends on the act of worship to sustain itself / some properties of itself, then it could do that in a sleight of hand by making us worshippers by default, and negate free will, in which case you wouldn't have enough freedom to post this thread . not really difficult for a deity, huh ?
It's actually the other way around. We need to worship god. If we don't, we'll worship something inferior to god, be it an idol, an ideology, an addictive habit, possessions, an object of affection, etc. The Qur'an describes anyone who -knowingly- rejects worshipping god as someone who worships his own desires.
You might be interested in reading this thread of mine. I kind of answered this question from my own POV.
https://atheistforums.org/thread-61984.html
Sheers
As stated before, I understand I am biased and I am interested in this as a utilitarian chat. So, true in your points about me being possibly illogical. If you're willing to continue just for the sake of engagement of the ideas, I'd appreciate it. I like having my own thoughts drawn out and trying to articulate what exactly I'm thinking, so, I'm grateful to have your response to stretch my thought process this way.
Well, that's the thing. I AM speaking to members of the forum here. Much more than God ever has. I think I am allowed to set a higher standard of belief in something that claims to hold such power over existence itself. And of course, if a being showed themself to me and proved their power...I would want to get confirmation of its reality from others, such as my family or even random people. Because my first thought would be that I had lost my mind.
Even then though, I am trying to think of something they could do to prove Godhood. Possibly bringing something into or out of existence. But then there's the whole, elevated technology thing. If they could physically talk to me, it would always be in the back of my mind that they are on the same plane as me, and thus anything they did, I'd wonder if it weren't technology that I don't have access to, or a simulation(wherein God is actually just another operator in this simulation like myself but with admin access) or hypnosis, or weather changes I don't understand, etc.
That feels like a bad faith twisting of my words. Need as opposed to say demands? Because it is one of the 10 commandments, to have no other idols before him. And Christ said he was the way to salvation, to follow him and he follows his father. So, there is a demand for my worship and obedience. Sorry if that got mixed up.
As for needing to worship God...that feels really condescending towards humanity. I mean, sure, people have their vices and obsessions, their passions. But then we're getting into whether or not it is better to live life restricted by such rules, if some people are more capable than others of being responsible for themselves and not going off the deep end for food, drink, and money. And we're getting into the nitty gritty of what it actually means to be human. Is suffering a part of it? Is it inherently bad for people to fall down? I don't know... I tend to think it is better for people to experience and make choices based on the experiences they wish to have or don't have and to find accountability and motivation within themselves, rather than be restricted, to be compelled to behave a certain way. Barring societal rules that allow us to live together in harmony and thrive together as communities and a species, I don't see the benefit in giving over agency to some invisible being or power. I don't see how that makes you a better person or human.
I'll give your link a look! Thank you for providing it.
