Alpha Course Week 5 7th November 2011
Meal.
This week it was chicken and mushroom pie with boiled potatoes, carrots and broccoli.. The pie was one where the pastry was done separately and put on top of a stew at serving up time, but it was very tasty nonetheless. The broccoli was frozen so a bit mushy, but all in all not too bad. Sat with my usual group of ladies, and getting to know them quite well, they seem please to see me. (none of them are on my discussion group).
Numbers – again there were 21 people in total but only 5 men including me. I'm sure this means something – are women more naturally susceptible to religion ? In the discussion groups, mine had 12 the other 9.
Talk
The topic this week was “Why and how should I read the bible?” - talk given by the vicar. He mentioned that there were a lot of bibles printed and sold every year, and it is translated into a lot of languages. The bible is Gods' communication to us and is his “manual” for life – to illustrate this he produced his car manual and flicked through the pages showing how it could help him inflate his tyres etc. This seemed a bit of unnecessary theatre to me. The bible is there so that we can find out what is right and wrong. He quoted “All scripture is God breathed” - that is, God was the inspiration for the scriptures, and used the analogy of Christopher Wren designing St. Pauls although he himself never laid a single brick.. Quite a bit more about how brilliant the bible is but it got a bit boring and my mind drifted.
Group Session
As last week the session was led by “father” even though the vicar was back. He announced that we would continue with the talking book scheme from the last 2 weeks. The first question was “Any comments on the talk”. Book went round the group and back to “father” in double quick time. Maybe others had found it as boring as me. Next question was “Is the bible a manual for life?”. The book went round with about 3 or 4 people stating how they found it inspired them or was a great help etc. When it got to me I brought up the subject of slavery “If the bible is a manual for life and lets us tell right from wrong, what do people think about why it supports and condones slavery?” That put the cat amongst the pigeons. The “father” who is to my immediate left immediately said that he didn't think the bible does that, but I had come prepared with quotes – Leviticus 25:44-46 – where the bible explicitly states the conditions under which you can own slaves. Much rustling of pages ensued, whilst “father” rather stammered out that slavery was what humans did . By then the book had passed on so there was no more mention of slavery, and I was trying to stick to the rules, it actually curbs my instinct to interrupt and makes it better when I do speak. The vicar said “we don't have all the answers – part of Faith is not having the answers” - I'm getting quite used to this cop-out . When I got the book again I said “To round up my point, there is a lot of horrible stuff in the bible, particularly the OT, for example the part where the holy spirit goes from house to house in Egypt killing children except where there is a fish on the door. And then the Jews and Christians have a feast about it ! What a horrible thing to have a celebration about !” Just glum silence followed that.
Next question “Is the Bible the word of God?”. Usual testimonies of how great the bible is from some before I get the book (I'm always the last to get it this week). I say “If the Bible is the word of God, judging by the nasty stuff that happens in the OT I'm very glad he does not exist !”
At this the “father” asks me why I am here. I start to give my reasons but he interrupts and says “If this course went on for a year would you still hold the views you have now”. I say I couldn't possibly answer that, and if the course did go on for a year would he still hold his views. As he started to reply I stated that the course claimed to welcome agnostics and he seemed to be questioning my right to be there. He very quickly backed down. This is just too easy. Next the vicar asked me what would change my mind so I gave a list of about 5 or 6 things that would make me convert on the spot – stuff like an appearance by Jesus, a proper prophecy, etc. - I'm well into my stride now. The vicar says that he cannot provide any proof except the personal testimony and experience. I say “How convincing would you find it if a Hindu gave his personal testimony and assured you that if you just took that leap of faith they guarantee that Lord Vishnu would come into your heart ?” The “mother” gave the chair analogy – you have faith that a chair will support you if you sit on it. I replied the analogy does not work because I do not need to have faith in the existence of the chair. You never see someone poised to sit over thin air saying I have faith in this chair !!
This is really too easy, and I get the feeling that I have begun to grind them down. Got some more of “I just know it's true” from various people. Got the “you can't see air but you know it's there “ analogy. This is surely stuff for toddlers. My reply, “Air is made of colourless gasses, but if you go into orbit …. etc”
It was me against the rest by now. I was asked would I want it to be true and I replied by paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens (I did say they were his words so I wasn't plagiarising !) “No I think it would be horrible. It would be like a spiritual North Korea with 24 hour surveillance in your every waking moment and also when you were asleep !!”
Getting to the end now, but as last week I was able to have the closing statement. “Obviously all religions are not true, but they could all be false “
Brilliant !! Thoroughly enjoyed that !! It was like stealing sweets from a child !! And all done without any acrimony or bad feeling. Even “father” and I are getting along OK. In truth I feel a bit sorry for him, because he is a recently promoted church “elder” and obviously feels he should be doing more than the others to provide answers. (at least better than “we haven't got all the answers”).
That's all for now. Next week “How does God guide us?”.
Regards
pgrimes15
Meal.
This week it was chicken and mushroom pie with boiled potatoes, carrots and broccoli.. The pie was one where the pastry was done separately and put on top of a stew at serving up time, but it was very tasty nonetheless. The broccoli was frozen so a bit mushy, but all in all not too bad. Sat with my usual group of ladies, and getting to know them quite well, they seem please to see me. (none of them are on my discussion group).
Numbers – again there were 21 people in total but only 5 men including me. I'm sure this means something – are women more naturally susceptible to religion ? In the discussion groups, mine had 12 the other 9.
Talk
The topic this week was “Why and how should I read the bible?” - talk given by the vicar. He mentioned that there were a lot of bibles printed and sold every year, and it is translated into a lot of languages. The bible is Gods' communication to us and is his “manual” for life – to illustrate this he produced his car manual and flicked through the pages showing how it could help him inflate his tyres etc. This seemed a bit of unnecessary theatre to me. The bible is there so that we can find out what is right and wrong. He quoted “All scripture is God breathed” - that is, God was the inspiration for the scriptures, and used the analogy of Christopher Wren designing St. Pauls although he himself never laid a single brick.. Quite a bit more about how brilliant the bible is but it got a bit boring and my mind drifted.
Group Session
As last week the session was led by “father” even though the vicar was back. He announced that we would continue with the talking book scheme from the last 2 weeks. The first question was “Any comments on the talk”. Book went round the group and back to “father” in double quick time. Maybe others had found it as boring as me. Next question was “Is the bible a manual for life?”. The book went round with about 3 or 4 people stating how they found it inspired them or was a great help etc. When it got to me I brought up the subject of slavery “If the bible is a manual for life and lets us tell right from wrong, what do people think about why it supports and condones slavery?” That put the cat amongst the pigeons. The “father” who is to my immediate left immediately said that he didn't think the bible does that, but I had come prepared with quotes – Leviticus 25:44-46 – where the bible explicitly states the conditions under which you can own slaves. Much rustling of pages ensued, whilst “father” rather stammered out that slavery was what humans did . By then the book had passed on so there was no more mention of slavery, and I was trying to stick to the rules, it actually curbs my instinct to interrupt and makes it better when I do speak. The vicar said “we don't have all the answers – part of Faith is not having the answers” - I'm getting quite used to this cop-out . When I got the book again I said “To round up my point, there is a lot of horrible stuff in the bible, particularly the OT, for example the part where the holy spirit goes from house to house in Egypt killing children except where there is a fish on the door. And then the Jews and Christians have a feast about it ! What a horrible thing to have a celebration about !” Just glum silence followed that.
Next question “Is the Bible the word of God?”. Usual testimonies of how great the bible is from some before I get the book (I'm always the last to get it this week). I say “If the Bible is the word of God, judging by the nasty stuff that happens in the OT I'm very glad he does not exist !”
At this the “father” asks me why I am here. I start to give my reasons but he interrupts and says “If this course went on for a year would you still hold the views you have now”. I say I couldn't possibly answer that, and if the course did go on for a year would he still hold his views. As he started to reply I stated that the course claimed to welcome agnostics and he seemed to be questioning my right to be there. He very quickly backed down. This is just too easy. Next the vicar asked me what would change my mind so I gave a list of about 5 or 6 things that would make me convert on the spot – stuff like an appearance by Jesus, a proper prophecy, etc. - I'm well into my stride now. The vicar says that he cannot provide any proof except the personal testimony and experience. I say “How convincing would you find it if a Hindu gave his personal testimony and assured you that if you just took that leap of faith they guarantee that Lord Vishnu would come into your heart ?” The “mother” gave the chair analogy – you have faith that a chair will support you if you sit on it. I replied the analogy does not work because I do not need to have faith in the existence of the chair. You never see someone poised to sit over thin air saying I have faith in this chair !!
This is really too easy, and I get the feeling that I have begun to grind them down. Got some more of “I just know it's true” from various people. Got the “you can't see air but you know it's there “ analogy. This is surely stuff for toddlers. My reply, “Air is made of colourless gasses, but if you go into orbit …. etc”
It was me against the rest by now. I was asked would I want it to be true and I replied by paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens (I did say they were his words so I wasn't plagiarising !) “No I think it would be horrible. It would be like a spiritual North Korea with 24 hour surveillance in your every waking moment and also when you were asleep !!”
Getting to the end now, but as last week I was able to have the closing statement. “Obviously all religions are not true, but they could all be false “
Brilliant !! Thoroughly enjoyed that !! It was like stealing sweets from a child !! And all done without any acrimony or bad feeling. Even “father” and I are getting along OK. In truth I feel a bit sorry for him, because he is a recently promoted church “elder” and obviously feels he should be doing more than the others to provide answers. (at least better than “we haven't got all the answers”).
That's all for now. Next week “How does God guide us?”.
Regards
pgrimes15
