Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims

[ronedee]

forgiveness works on two levels. what you owe God in the way of sin debt and what others owe you in the way of sin debt. God points out in a parable that the debt owed by you to him will never exceed the sin debt people owe you.

I owe nothing to your imaginary friend.  If it thinks otherwise, it is free to come collect in person.

---

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim.

Saying "I'm sorry, God; yes, I accept Jesus" does nothing to resolve a problem caused in the real world against a real victim.  You must apologize and make restitution for what you've done, and the person you harmed is fully within their rights to refuse to forgive you.

I reject substitutionary atonement unconditionally.

You are looking at it through a human perspective. It's not to say, we don't owe each other repentance & reparations. But, in God's eyes none of us are innocent.

So we can all be put in the category of "sinner". And to say otherwise is...well....being a sinner.

I don't give a flying fuck what your god allegedly thinks, as I believe it to be no more than a human invention.  People behave badly sometimes, but "sin" is a fictional ailment.

We're not substituting anything. Atonement for our sins before God, is accepting His payment for our sins. He paid the price with us (death of the body).  And that goes along with His Love for us, and our Love for Him and each other. Of course most can't wrap their heads around that. Even believers have trouble understanding. And, that was my question years ago in my heart! Why?

No one pays my debts.  I do not consent to anyone dying in my place for any reason whatsoever.  Salvation rejected unconditionally.

Unfortunately, all had to go down for freewill to exist. God didn't want robots. He wanted His creation to be independent and Love Him for the sake of His gifts of Love & Life. Which most could care about. Just look around? The moment before us, is all that matters.

Bullshit.  I cannot love your god - even if it did exist, its behaviour as described in the Bible is unspeakably barbaric.

Faith is huge in all this!

And this is another reason that I will not be worshipping your god -- I have never possessed religious faith, as I cannot sufficiently suspend disbelief to the extent required to have faith in your god.

Or any other gods, for that matter.  My brain just doesn't do religious faith.  Throughout my life, even when I did try, the part of my mind that goes "Yeah, riiiiight..." predominated.  I'm done trying, especially now that I'm an agnostic atheist.  I see no benefit in wasting my time trying to cultivate a mindset that my unconscious mind clearly will not accept.

I get it! No need to explain. There's nothing there I haven't heard....

Except.... why so angry? No one is force feeding you the Word. Or, are they?

I mean, all religion is on the downside. You're winning! Shouldn't you be happy about that? 

Just wondering why? You don't need to reply if it's something personal. Ron

---

Obviously, you've never read the Bible. Nothing I said was outside of it. It's all there, try picking up a copy! It's the most printed book in history!

Did God write the bible in his holy hand, or did men?  So you're simply taking the bible at face value in order to make grand, unjustified claims about God.  Like I said, unreasoning twat.

Another angry face! Just trying to converse.

Hey, change my mind! I'm all ears. 

I realize you need to put up a "good showing" for your buddies....But, I'd appreciate less comparisons to body parts! Thx, Ron