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Poll: Does the mind produce thoughts or do thoughts produce the mind?
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Mind produces thoughts
26.67%
4 26.67%
Thoughts produce mind
6.67%
1 6.67%
Both
13.33%
2 13.33%
Neither
53.33%
8 53.33%
Total 15 vote(s) 100%
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Mindfulness or Mindlessness?
#89
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness?
(September 2, 2021 at 11:56 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Descartes laid out the mind-body problem for us. His solution to it, substance dualism, is lacking. But he asked the right questions, at least. Functionalism, if anything, is an answer to those questions. Substance dualism relies on folk intuitions. But the mind-body problem itself may not. I mean, there is a mystery there, isn't there? And we can't explore that mystery without covering the territory first travelled by Descartes.

Qualia doesn't demand an explanation. Conscious experience demands an explanation. Qualia is simply something we march out in front of those who say there is a 1:1 reduction between conscious states and brain states.

***

Are beliefs a thing? Well, in a metaphysical sense, they are. I have a belief that my car is parked in my driveway. The cause of this belief is the firing of neurons in my brain. But what the belief says (its truth-value, etc.) is not determined by looking at my neurons. The belief has a metaphysical structure, and you determine the truth value of it by looking at the structure of the belief, and comparing it to the physical world (ie. by looking at my driveway) to see if it's true. For this reason I want to say beliefs (and by proxy, memories) are on different ontological ground than qualia. "Caused by brain states" is the only common denominator.

What is there to conscious experience besides qualia? Qualia is the what of intentionality. It's qualia all the way down. If qualia needs no explanation, then conscious experience needs none.

I'm very skeptical of people who talk about various "whats" of consciousness. To me it's like hearing a noise and concluding there is a bear in the brush. Assuming the bear brings a truckload of properties that may not belong to the noise. Assuming that whats like qualia and experience are existent is assuming a lot about them. As noted in the dream analogy, these may be just our brain telling us we have a what. This, as noted, leads to the Cartesian theater, which is almost certainly wrong. So some of the properties you're inheriting by assuming a whatness about qualia or experience are most certainly wrong. Take memories for example. If we assume a whatness to them, then we bring in a property of persistence and exteriorality, neither of which are supported by the science. Memory is a process, not a thing. So I think the evidence leans in favor of considering consciousness and experience as a process rather than a what. I'm reminded of Searle's Chinese Room; a skeptic might look in vain for where the meaning lies by assuming it is a what that exists in or out of the room. My favored response is the systems response, but in terms of consciousness, that's basically functionalism, which you seem unhappy with. I have to wonder if you found square circles in a dream whether you'd be looking to explain their whatness in the dream similarly.

ETAS: I think what you are referring to as beliefs are more properly termed propositions. Beliefs are the feeling associated with propositions. That feeling isn't metaphysical.
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Messages In This Thread
Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 21, 2021 at 1:12 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Ahriman - August 21, 2021 at 2:17 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 22, 2021 at 2:04 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - August 25, 2021 at 4:10 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 8:49 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - August 21, 2021 at 7:48 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 27, 2021 at 12:53 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - August 27, 2021 at 1:33 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 27, 2021 at 2:22 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 29, 2021 at 7:03 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jackalope - August 21, 2021 at 8:20 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 21, 2021 at 9:50 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - August 23, 2021 at 11:57 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 8:03 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Nay_Sayer - August 23, 2021 at 12:05 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Spongebob - August 23, 2021 at 3:37 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 8:10 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by brewer - August 26, 2021 at 8:28 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by AFTT47 - August 31, 2021 at 12:56 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - August 31, 2021 at 1:25 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 31, 2021 at 1:58 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - August 31, 2021 at 9:27 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 31, 2021 at 6:40 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - August 31, 2021 at 8:01 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 1, 2021 at 9:20 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 1, 2021 at 10:59 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 1, 2021 at 11:11 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 1, 2021 at 11:51 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 1, 2021 at 11:59 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 1, 2021 at 1:10 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 1, 2021 at 2:55 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 1, 2021 at 4:15 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 1, 2021 at 4:49 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 1, 2021 at 5:03 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 1, 2021 at 5:34 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 1, 2021 at 5:53 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - September 2, 2021 at 5:16 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 31, 2021 at 2:57 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - August 23, 2021 at 3:53 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by brewer - August 23, 2021 at 4:11 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Secular Elf - August 23, 2021 at 4:15 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by brewer - August 23, 2021 at 6:37 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - August 23, 2021 at 5:21 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Silver - August 26, 2021 at 8:08 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by brewer - August 26, 2021 at 9:12 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 5:13 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - August 26, 2021 at 5:42 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 6:16 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - August 27, 2021 at 6:29 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2021 at 8:08 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jehanne - August 26, 2021 at 8:25 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 8:37 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Ahriman - August 26, 2021 at 8:25 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 8:44 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2021 at 8:27 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Ahriman - August 26, 2021 at 8:30 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jehanne - August 26, 2021 at 8:31 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Ahriman - August 26, 2021 at 8:36 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jehanne - August 26, 2021 at 8:39 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Ahriman - August 26, 2021 at 8:40 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LostLocke - August 26, 2021 at 9:05 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 26, 2021 at 9:36 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by brewer - August 26, 2021 at 9:46 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jehanne - August 26, 2021 at 11:23 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2021 at 8:37 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Silver - August 27, 2021 at 6:40 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jehanne - August 27, 2021 at 10:29 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 28, 2021 at 12:44 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - August 28, 2021 at 2:27 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 28, 2021 at 3:50 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - August 29, 2021 at 8:26 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 29, 2021 at 9:33 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 29, 2021 at 9:22 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - August 29, 2021 at 9:38 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - August 30, 2021 at 6:14 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - August 30, 2021 at 10:21 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Silver - August 31, 2021 at 9:33 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Fireball - August 31, 2021 at 10:06 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Silver - August 31, 2021 at 10:24 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2021 at 5:49 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 2, 2021 at 9:16 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - September 3, 2021 at 4:34 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2021 at 9:32 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 2, 2021 at 10:36 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 2, 2021 at 11:20 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 2, 2021 at 11:56 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 2, 2021 at 2:05 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 2, 2021 at 2:08 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 2, 2021 at 2:28 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 2, 2021 at 7:28 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 3, 2021 at 12:25 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 5, 2021 at 3:03 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 5, 2021 at 6:12 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2021 at 12:05 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 2, 2021 at 1:25 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2021 at 1:57 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2021 at 2:19 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 2, 2021 at 3:01 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2021 at 2:31 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2021 at 4:02 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2021 at 1:00 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 3, 2021 at 1:50 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2021 at 2:09 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 3, 2021 at 2:55 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2021 at 3:44 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 3, 2021 at 5:01 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2021 at 7:58 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2021 at 10:20 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jehanne - September 4, 2021 at 1:44 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - September 5, 2021 at 12:12 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Jehanne - September 5, 2021 at 9:20 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - September 6, 2021 at 8:29 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2021 at 10:44 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 5, 2021 at 8:53 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by emjay - September 5, 2021 at 11:32 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 6, 2021 at 10:53 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by emjay - September 7, 2021 at 4:34 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 5, 2021 at 9:30 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 5, 2021 at 12:22 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by emjay - September 5, 2021 at 1:01 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 5, 2021 at 1:20 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by emjay - September 5, 2021 at 1:30 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 6, 2021 at 6:37 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by emjay - September 6, 2021 at 10:26 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 6, 2021 at 11:17 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by emjay - September 6, 2021 at 12:20 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Ahriman - September 6, 2021 at 8:37 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 6, 2021 at 11:57 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 7, 2021 at 9:42 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 7, 2021 at 10:26 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 7, 2021 at 10:53 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Silver - September 7, 2021 at 10:34 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 7, 2021 at 11:01 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 8, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 8, 2021 at 11:44 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 8, 2021 at 11:52 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 9, 2021 at 1:06 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 9, 2021 at 1:13 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 9, 2021 at 4:12 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 9, 2021 at 5:07 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 10, 2021 at 10:00 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 10, 2021 at 3:02 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 12, 2021 at 12:09 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 12, 2021 at 1:23 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 12, 2021 at 1:33 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by vulcanlogician - September 9, 2021 at 12:55 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 9, 2021 at 9:22 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 10, 2021 at 7:56 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by LadyForCamus - September 11, 2021 at 3:19 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 12, 2021 at 10:47 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 14, 2021 at 1:38 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 13, 2021 at 11:22 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Angrboda - September 13, 2021 at 11:39 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 13, 2021 at 11:54 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2021 at 8:33 am
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2021 at 2:31 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 14, 2021 at 4:55 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2021 at 6:49 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by HappySkeptic - September 15, 2021 at 4:22 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 16, 2021 at 12:50 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by The Grand Nudger - September 16, 2021 at 2:19 pm
RE: Mindfulness or Mindlessness? - by DLJ - September 21, 2021 at 5:11 am



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