RE: The Plato Thread
November 8, 2021 at 12:27 pm
(This post was last modified: November 8, 2021 at 12:28 pm by vulcanlogician.)
(November 6, 2021 at 10:12 pm)Astreja Wrote: I'm very new to Plato - about halfway through Republic at the moment. Not a fan of the "Let's restrict what the playwrights and poets can say in our city" concept, or the idea that people should only work at one particular occupation and not dabble in others. Even if it's allegory, there's something rather creepy about it.
Yes. He desires a rigid society where poets are censored and information is controlled. There was a 20th century philosopher (I forget who it was) who used to call him "Plato the fascist." There are even more worrisome mandates in Book 6 (I think... near book 6 anyway)... where he talks about wanting everyone in the society to believe they are from the same family in an almost cult-like unity. Sort of reminiscent of the vibe fed to the children in the Hitler Youth.
What's more, very late in the book, after much has been expounded, one of the interlocutors asks Socrates what he thinks his best idea is concerning the hypothetical city. His answer? Censoring the poets.
I disagree with that assessment. There are TONS of better ideas featured in the Republic. In fact, I think the censorship of the poets is one of the worst-- if not the worst-- idea featured in the entire book.
You've already picked up on one possible defense of the charge "Plato is a fascist," Astreja. It's allegory. And at the point where Plato really lays out the details of the city's censorship policies, Books 2 and 3, the city being allegory for the soul is very much in the forefront of the conversation... the supposed allegory being that Plato is advising us to be selective about what we read, and read only things that strengthen us.
But I don't think a first-time reader need spend too much time thinking about how Plato could be defended on this. The Republic is designed to say "no" to while you read it. Like I advised emjay, when Plato says something you disagree with, go ahead and say "no." And then think about WHY you disagree. The Republic is pregnant with ideas that aren't even featured on the pages... they are your own ideas. Plato is very much the Socratic midwife in the Republic. That's why it's a work of astounding genius. When you read it, you are invited to Ancient Athens to participate in a discussion about what justice is.
As to the charge of Plato being a fascist. I disagree with the assessment for many reasons. (I won't list them here). But I also don't think the allegation is plucked from thin air. Throughout much of the Republic, Plato is criticizing democracy for its shortcomings. I personally agree with Winston Churchill: "democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried." But since I believe in democracy... and I live in a democracy, I better pay special heed to its shortcomings, right? That's where Plato's analysis is valuable. He does just that, and I think everyone who lives in a democracy and believes democracy is the best system ought to pay close attention to Plato's criticisms.
