Alpha Course week 7 - 21st November
How can I resist evil?
The meal this week was pasta (fusilli – the corkscrew one) with tuna in a creamy tomato sauce. The pasta was overcooked so a bit sloppy. There was also garlic bread and some salad. Pudding was some custard with jelly and something biscuity sprinkled on top. This was not the best week for food. As I sat there in my usual end listening to my group of ladies talking about their grandchildren for the umpteenth time I suddenly felt a weariness come over me and thought “What am I doing here? With these people who I don't really have anything in common with.”. No doubt this feeling was enhanced by the fact that we had the weekend away day only last Saturday. It would be nice to have an ally here, or at least to hear occasionally “That's a good point”. Still, enough of feeling sorry for myself.
Numbers – 20 people – 6 men
The Talk
The talk was on the subject “How can I resist evil ?” given by the “senior lay-person” who had spoken in week 3. He started by warning that Satan exists and by way of evidence pointing out all the bad stuff that happens in the world. It immediately occurred to me that bad stuff happening could also be evidence that God does not exist. There followed warnings about the tactics of the Devil – putting bad thoughts in peoples' minds, making them doubt etc. This was quite apocalyptic stuff, a bit more juicy and old school compared to previous weeks. He quoted the atheist director of the film “The Exorcist” as saying “I don't believe in God, but the Devil is another thing” and also mentioned atheism playing havoc with peoples lives. Clearly this was the old slur that atheists are devil worshippers. Next he talked about the battle between good and evil, and introduced the D-day analogy – the crucifixion of Jesus was like D-day, a turning point in the war but not the end of it. The defeat of Satan in the end days will be like VE-day, and the time in between is the “mopping up” operation. I'm sure this analogy fails in many ways, but can't be bothered to analyse it. Then , how can we defend themselves against Satan? Well Christians have an armoury of defences, “shield of righteousness, helmet of salvation . .etc” this all sounds a bit silly to me. Finally bible verses are supposedly effective. It occurred to me that the Devil must have a free hand in countries like Japan where there are not many Christians – I will bring it up in the discussion.
The Group Session.
The groups are now the same as they were at the weekend. Perhaps I am getting paranoid, but it seems that I have now been separated from the younger people who may remember and ponder my arguments. I feel manoeuvred into a group where I might be less “dangerous” to peoples faith. The group I am in now consists of the vicar, “female church elder” (a lady of about 80), the two meal group ladies in their 60's and 70's – long standing church members, and the hard to understand Portuguese lady. I started the discussion by stating in a very firm manner “Atheists do NOT believe in or worship the Devil !!” - felt I needed to be very clear on this. The “talking-book” system had gone away which I was very glad of so I launched into my first question “What do people actually mean by evil ? Is a little child stealing a biscuit evil in the same way as the Dunblane massacre (where a gunman shot dead school children), but is simply at the other end ot the scale of severity, or is evil something different entirely?. This went back to a question I had asked in week 2 about what is the difference between sin, crime, wrong etc. There was a little bit of discussion, but I made a mistake in mentioning a little child stealing biscuits because that was the cue for one of the meal group ladies to launch into a long winded tale about her grandchild who wanted a biscuit. This went on so long and in such a meandering fashion that even the vicar was trying to chivvy her along. As usual my original point “If you are talking about the battle between good and evil, you should at least have a working definition of evil” was lost.
Onto my next question “Presumably the people in a country like Japan where there are not many Christians are virtually unprotected from the Devils' schemes. They have their own local deities, but since they are false God's they might as well asked for Mickey mouse to protect them - Satan must have a free hand. Yet from what I know about Japan it is a fairly orderly place – people aren't running around in the streets killing themselves, how do you explain that ?”
The Portuguese lady spoke about it, but as before it was almost impossible to understand what she was saying. I am getting the feeling that it is not just her accent, but the content of what she is saying that is undecipherable – and as before she almost, but not quite, started to cry, I could see her eyes filling up. The “female church elder” contributed that maybe Japan is in a state of chaos but we just don't hear about it – I responded that my son has been to Japan and I know some Japanese people and my impression is that it is not a place you would fear for your life when visiting, particularly compared to an overtly Christian country like USA. As before my question goes virtually unaddressed – this seems to be the pattern, either “we haven't got all the answers” (Christians spin this into a virtue – the fewer answers you have the more “faith” you've got) or wait till I've stopped speaking and move onto something else.
Still press on regardless - “Why doesn't God just kill the Devil?”
This question, to my surprise, was greeted with a stunned silence !! Surely people must have considered this before !! I pressed on “Presumably he could do this if he wanted, what's stopping him ? You could still have your “got to believe in Jesus” qualification, but all of those nasty things would stop and everyone would feel better wouldn't they?” Nobody had an answer except that it says in Revelation that God will defeat Satan at the end. “Surely God doesn't have to stick to a schedule ?” Nothing of any substance came back – good question !! but wasted on this lot – some of the people on the other groups should hear it !!
“Why did God let the Devil into the garden of Eden, couldn't he have put a fence up?” “Female church elder” came back that he wanted to see if they would obey him. “Well if you were a grandparent and let your grand children play in the garden with a tree with poisonous fruit and a dangerous snake you would be acting very irresponsibly wouldn't you?” The vicar conceded that this was hard to explain, even volunteering the information that God knew what would happen. I said “So you put some childlike people in a garden with a poisonous tree and a dangerous snake both of which you made and allowed to be there, KNOWING IN ADVANCE that they would eat the poison fruit – it was a set-up wasn't it ?” The vicar lamely stated that it wasn't a set-up. This is all good stuff but I might as well be talking to myself. Bring back the good old days of jousting with “father”!!
Again I had made the mistake of mentioning grandparents and grandchildren because meal group lady launched into another interminable story about her grandson – thankfully not involving snakes and trees, and that took us to the end of the session.
Feel that they have learned how to deal with me – put me in a group with people who are either deeply entrenched in the church hierarchy or will not understand my arguments and will just wait till I've stopped speaking, and then talk about their grandchildren again. Above all keep me away from anyone under 30.
Helped put chairs away then said goodbye.
Next week “Why and How should I tell others?”
regards
pgrimes15
How can I resist evil?
The meal this week was pasta (fusilli – the corkscrew one) with tuna in a creamy tomato sauce. The pasta was overcooked so a bit sloppy. There was also garlic bread and some salad. Pudding was some custard with jelly and something biscuity sprinkled on top. This was not the best week for food. As I sat there in my usual end listening to my group of ladies talking about their grandchildren for the umpteenth time I suddenly felt a weariness come over me and thought “What am I doing here? With these people who I don't really have anything in common with.”. No doubt this feeling was enhanced by the fact that we had the weekend away day only last Saturday. It would be nice to have an ally here, or at least to hear occasionally “That's a good point”. Still, enough of feeling sorry for myself.
Numbers – 20 people – 6 men
The Talk
The talk was on the subject “How can I resist evil ?” given by the “senior lay-person” who had spoken in week 3. He started by warning that Satan exists and by way of evidence pointing out all the bad stuff that happens in the world. It immediately occurred to me that bad stuff happening could also be evidence that God does not exist. There followed warnings about the tactics of the Devil – putting bad thoughts in peoples' minds, making them doubt etc. This was quite apocalyptic stuff, a bit more juicy and old school compared to previous weeks. He quoted the atheist director of the film “The Exorcist” as saying “I don't believe in God, but the Devil is another thing” and also mentioned atheism playing havoc with peoples lives. Clearly this was the old slur that atheists are devil worshippers. Next he talked about the battle between good and evil, and introduced the D-day analogy – the crucifixion of Jesus was like D-day, a turning point in the war but not the end of it. The defeat of Satan in the end days will be like VE-day, and the time in between is the “mopping up” operation. I'm sure this analogy fails in many ways, but can't be bothered to analyse it. Then , how can we defend themselves against Satan? Well Christians have an armoury of defences, “shield of righteousness, helmet of salvation . .etc” this all sounds a bit silly to me. Finally bible verses are supposedly effective. It occurred to me that the Devil must have a free hand in countries like Japan where there are not many Christians – I will bring it up in the discussion.
The Group Session.
The groups are now the same as they were at the weekend. Perhaps I am getting paranoid, but it seems that I have now been separated from the younger people who may remember and ponder my arguments. I feel manoeuvred into a group where I might be less “dangerous” to peoples faith. The group I am in now consists of the vicar, “female church elder” (a lady of about 80), the two meal group ladies in their 60's and 70's – long standing church members, and the hard to understand Portuguese lady. I started the discussion by stating in a very firm manner “Atheists do NOT believe in or worship the Devil !!” - felt I needed to be very clear on this. The “talking-book” system had gone away which I was very glad of so I launched into my first question “What do people actually mean by evil ? Is a little child stealing a biscuit evil in the same way as the Dunblane massacre (where a gunman shot dead school children), but is simply at the other end ot the scale of severity, or is evil something different entirely?. This went back to a question I had asked in week 2 about what is the difference between sin, crime, wrong etc. There was a little bit of discussion, but I made a mistake in mentioning a little child stealing biscuits because that was the cue for one of the meal group ladies to launch into a long winded tale about her grandchild who wanted a biscuit. This went on so long and in such a meandering fashion that even the vicar was trying to chivvy her along. As usual my original point “If you are talking about the battle between good and evil, you should at least have a working definition of evil” was lost.
Onto my next question “Presumably the people in a country like Japan where there are not many Christians are virtually unprotected from the Devils' schemes. They have their own local deities, but since they are false God's they might as well asked for Mickey mouse to protect them - Satan must have a free hand. Yet from what I know about Japan it is a fairly orderly place – people aren't running around in the streets killing themselves, how do you explain that ?”
The Portuguese lady spoke about it, but as before it was almost impossible to understand what she was saying. I am getting the feeling that it is not just her accent, but the content of what she is saying that is undecipherable – and as before she almost, but not quite, started to cry, I could see her eyes filling up. The “female church elder” contributed that maybe Japan is in a state of chaos but we just don't hear about it – I responded that my son has been to Japan and I know some Japanese people and my impression is that it is not a place you would fear for your life when visiting, particularly compared to an overtly Christian country like USA. As before my question goes virtually unaddressed – this seems to be the pattern, either “we haven't got all the answers” (Christians spin this into a virtue – the fewer answers you have the more “faith” you've got) or wait till I've stopped speaking and move onto something else.
Still press on regardless - “Why doesn't God just kill the Devil?”
This question, to my surprise, was greeted with a stunned silence !! Surely people must have considered this before !! I pressed on “Presumably he could do this if he wanted, what's stopping him ? You could still have your “got to believe in Jesus” qualification, but all of those nasty things would stop and everyone would feel better wouldn't they?” Nobody had an answer except that it says in Revelation that God will defeat Satan at the end. “Surely God doesn't have to stick to a schedule ?” Nothing of any substance came back – good question !! but wasted on this lot – some of the people on the other groups should hear it !!
“Why did God let the Devil into the garden of Eden, couldn't he have put a fence up?” “Female church elder” came back that he wanted to see if they would obey him. “Well if you were a grandparent and let your grand children play in the garden with a tree with poisonous fruit and a dangerous snake you would be acting very irresponsibly wouldn't you?” The vicar conceded that this was hard to explain, even volunteering the information that God knew what would happen. I said “So you put some childlike people in a garden with a poisonous tree and a dangerous snake both of which you made and allowed to be there, KNOWING IN ADVANCE that they would eat the poison fruit – it was a set-up wasn't it ?” The vicar lamely stated that it wasn't a set-up. This is all good stuff but I might as well be talking to myself. Bring back the good old days of jousting with “father”!!
Again I had made the mistake of mentioning grandparents and grandchildren because meal group lady launched into another interminable story about her grandson – thankfully not involving snakes and trees, and that took us to the end of the session.
Feel that they have learned how to deal with me – put me in a group with people who are either deeply entrenched in the church hierarchy or will not understand my arguments and will just wait till I've stopped speaking, and then talk about their grandchildren again. Above all keep me away from anyone under 30.
Helped put chairs away then said goodbye.
Next week “Why and How should I tell others?”
regards
pgrimes15
