Alpha Course Week 9 5th December
The Meal
This week it was pretty good. My friend the professional caterer was back and it showed. Lasagne with salad and coleslaw – very nice. Pudding was fresh fruit cocktail with some cream from an aerosol. Not bad at all, one of the better weeks for food. Sat at my usual end with the ladies but did not have too much “grandchild” talk to put up with. Spoke with the Portuguese lady for quite a long time since I have been on holiday to Portugal and she comes from close to where I went. Despite her being hard to understand sometimes, I get on really well with her.
Numbers 18 people 6 men.
The Talk
Topic this week was “Does God heal today ?” Obviously the answer to this was a resounding yes . The first thing the vicar said was that God heals through doctors and nurses. I think this was meant to be a nod to the medical skills of health professionals and that people shouldn't JUST rely on god for their health care (why not I hear you ask), but it is a pretty nonsensical statement – more about it later. This was followed up by some anecdotes about healing – all set in churches where a preacher or healer would say, “someone has got a sore bottom” or something like that and others would rush forward saying “how did you know – oh – it's better now !” He followed up by an anecdote from his Alpha Course training course where someone with whiplash (honestly he could hardly walk) was miraculously healed and was doing cartwheels. (I have actually seen this happen to a friend, and to cap it all, a large cheque from a motor insurance company arrived soon after !) Then examples of Jesus healing in the bible and scripture verses about it. Vicar also mentioned raising from the dead, claiming it does happen – not in our society but in Africa – mentioning a couple of anecdotal tales about the practice. Isn't this flirting with heresy ??
Interlude
After the talk I was busting to go the loo. I asked where it was and headed off down some stairs and off to the left.. When I walked in, there, a few urinals along was the young non-christian chap I have mentioned before who was there with his Christian wife (at the course, not there in the loo!). We looked at each other and said “alright”' The urinal is a sacred place for men with special rules of behaviour. I asked how it was going for him - “ok” - and he asked the same, “well they haven't converted me yet – how about you ?”. He said “yeah” - “Oh really when did that happen?” - “during the away day “ - “really !! Did you feel something? -” Yeah quite a lot.” - “Oh I see “,. Back to urinal mens stuff – stare at the walls - some rules can't be broken. During this whole exchange he was about as excited as if he had just discovered he had herpes. If I had said “I see you drive a Ford Fiesta is that reliable? He would have been far more animated and interested “Yeah , I got it quite cheap , it goes like a bomb but the kids like it , the insurance was cheap , but its got quite a bit of poke in it ...etc “ because blokes like to talk about their cars. As it was, the revelation that he had found Jesus was not worth mentioning until I specifically asked him. All the while he was looking straight ahead ( urinal protocol) and seemed as if he wished he could be anywhere else.
Unless I am a really bad judge of people, he knew that I knew he was just pretending and was a little embarrassed . I don't blame him, maybe his wife had been pressurising him and he wanted to get in with his new friends (no doubt there are all kinds of hugs and kissing and inclusions with friendly people saying how brilliant it is !!).
The Discussion
Same groups as the last few weeks, no doubt it will be the same next week which is the last one. My days of influencing anyone whose faith is not set in stone (i.e. over 50 and life long church goers) are long past. If you have read my previous postings you will remember that my high point was week 5 where I felt I had them on the run !! Their solution - quarantine !!
Usual format “Any questions about the talk?” .Blank looks and silence, so, with a sigh this time I said I have a couple of questions. “In the talk you said God heals through doctors and nurses. Could you just expand on this – what do you actually mean by it?” “Well, just what I said that the power of god's healing is felt in hospitals” “Could you be more specific – I mean does god control the doctors like robots, does he oversee and just intervene when necessary, does he take a back seat and let them do their work confident that their training will guide them ?” At this point he deferred to “female church elder” who said “He helps them to choose the right medicines” I say “ What about nurses and doctors in Japan, how do they select the right treatments, do they just have to rely on their training? “ She just said “yes”. I had asked this last question as a sort of lampoon so was taken aback at this simple affirmation of the absurd. We had moved on by the time I got my wits together but I think this issue has great potential (What about a Muslim doctor treating a Muslim patient in this country? Why is Japanese life expectancy so high when their doctors have to muddle through without gods' help?) so if I am able I will come back to it next week.
Next question to the group “Do you think god heals?” Obviously everyone but me was sure he did and this prompted a rather tedious round of anecdotes about it. The one that stands out in my memory was from “female church elder”. A man came to her church once with a crooked thumb – it had been injured in an accident. People prayed for it and it straightened!! Thanks be to god!! Children in their thousands lie in hospitals with cancer, but he can cure a man’s' bent thumb !!
When my turn came I said “It will come as no surprise to anyone that I don't believe that, and it is a specific example of a more general thing. When you speak about Jesus talking to you and a relationship with the lord, or you have a feeling in your heart etc. nobody can dispute it. It is personal to you. But when Christians make claims about their god reaching down to the real world, affecting people and events, making things happen – quite dramatic things like saving peoples lives or protecting them from the devil, then that can be measured. If God is intervening so often to cure people who would otherwise die, or giving Christians better medical outcomes surely that will show up on someone's statistic !! Every Christian in this church – indeed in the country - has their tale to tell of a miraculous rescue from certain death due to the power of prayer. This is a real world claim that can be tested. Compare the medical results of certain conditions in this (Christian) country with those of, say, (non-Christian) Japan, and the difference should be detectable. The person who uncovers this will not only win the Nobel prize and billions of converts to their religion, but their name will resound down the ages alongside Newton and Einstein as someone who has discovered one of the basic truths of the universe !! I don't know what's stopping you !!!” This was quite a long speech even by my standards and I have reproduced it as best as I can. It is something I find important, the mismatch between the picture of the world painted by Christians and the actual world that you see when you open your eyes and look around. The responses? What you would expect. “God doesn't have to prove himself” “The statistics aren't done properly” “When a Christian is healed they don't go back to their doctor so won't show up on a statistic”
The meal group lady said “There is evidence outside that god exists” “Is there – what is it?” I said, pointedly getting my pen poised over my notebook to record these earth shattering revelations. “It's the trees and the stars”. Clearly this ladies level of sophistication about her religion hasn't advanced beyond Sunday school. “There is a perfectly good scientific explanation for these things, and it is backed up by evidence” Somehow this then got onto the absurdity of thinking we were descended from apes but the vicar intervened saying “We are the evidence that god exists” Huhhh?? “You might as well say that I am the evidence that god doesn't exist, or Hindus are evidence that Vishnu exists”
I'm beginning to lose the will to live and am quite glad that next week is the last
Not much else to report about this week. I did talk to the “female church elder” about the Meso-American gods who sacrificed themselves for the world. She said “But did they rise from the dead?” I said “There are plenty of gods who rose from the dead Mithra, Krishna, Horus,” but to be honest I left it there, my heart wasn't in it. Roll on next week and the end of the course.
Next week (last one hurrah!) “What about the church ?”
regards
pgrimes15
The Meal
This week it was pretty good. My friend the professional caterer was back and it showed. Lasagne with salad and coleslaw – very nice. Pudding was fresh fruit cocktail with some cream from an aerosol. Not bad at all, one of the better weeks for food. Sat at my usual end with the ladies but did not have too much “grandchild” talk to put up with. Spoke with the Portuguese lady for quite a long time since I have been on holiday to Portugal and she comes from close to where I went. Despite her being hard to understand sometimes, I get on really well with her.
Numbers 18 people 6 men.
The Talk
Topic this week was “Does God heal today ?” Obviously the answer to this was a resounding yes . The first thing the vicar said was that God heals through doctors and nurses. I think this was meant to be a nod to the medical skills of health professionals and that people shouldn't JUST rely on god for their health care (why not I hear you ask), but it is a pretty nonsensical statement – more about it later. This was followed up by some anecdotes about healing – all set in churches where a preacher or healer would say, “someone has got a sore bottom” or something like that and others would rush forward saying “how did you know – oh – it's better now !” He followed up by an anecdote from his Alpha Course training course where someone with whiplash (honestly he could hardly walk) was miraculously healed and was doing cartwheels. (I have actually seen this happen to a friend, and to cap it all, a large cheque from a motor insurance company arrived soon after !) Then examples of Jesus healing in the bible and scripture verses about it. Vicar also mentioned raising from the dead, claiming it does happen – not in our society but in Africa – mentioning a couple of anecdotal tales about the practice. Isn't this flirting with heresy ??
Interlude
After the talk I was busting to go the loo. I asked where it was and headed off down some stairs and off to the left.. When I walked in, there, a few urinals along was the young non-christian chap I have mentioned before who was there with his Christian wife (at the course, not there in the loo!). We looked at each other and said “alright”' The urinal is a sacred place for men with special rules of behaviour. I asked how it was going for him - “ok” - and he asked the same, “well they haven't converted me yet – how about you ?”. He said “yeah” - “Oh really when did that happen?” - “during the away day “ - “really !! Did you feel something? -” Yeah quite a lot.” - “Oh I see “,. Back to urinal mens stuff – stare at the walls - some rules can't be broken. During this whole exchange he was about as excited as if he had just discovered he had herpes. If I had said “I see you drive a Ford Fiesta is that reliable? He would have been far more animated and interested “Yeah , I got it quite cheap , it goes like a bomb but the kids like it , the insurance was cheap , but its got quite a bit of poke in it ...etc “ because blokes like to talk about their cars. As it was, the revelation that he had found Jesus was not worth mentioning until I specifically asked him. All the while he was looking straight ahead ( urinal protocol) and seemed as if he wished he could be anywhere else.
Unless I am a really bad judge of people, he knew that I knew he was just pretending and was a little embarrassed . I don't blame him, maybe his wife had been pressurising him and he wanted to get in with his new friends (no doubt there are all kinds of hugs and kissing and inclusions with friendly people saying how brilliant it is !!).
The Discussion
Same groups as the last few weeks, no doubt it will be the same next week which is the last one. My days of influencing anyone whose faith is not set in stone (i.e. over 50 and life long church goers) are long past. If you have read my previous postings you will remember that my high point was week 5 where I felt I had them on the run !! Their solution - quarantine !!
Usual format “Any questions about the talk?” .Blank looks and silence, so, with a sigh this time I said I have a couple of questions. “In the talk you said God heals through doctors and nurses. Could you just expand on this – what do you actually mean by it?” “Well, just what I said that the power of god's healing is felt in hospitals” “Could you be more specific – I mean does god control the doctors like robots, does he oversee and just intervene when necessary, does he take a back seat and let them do their work confident that their training will guide them ?” At this point he deferred to “female church elder” who said “He helps them to choose the right medicines” I say “ What about nurses and doctors in Japan, how do they select the right treatments, do they just have to rely on their training? “ She just said “yes”. I had asked this last question as a sort of lampoon so was taken aback at this simple affirmation of the absurd. We had moved on by the time I got my wits together but I think this issue has great potential (What about a Muslim doctor treating a Muslim patient in this country? Why is Japanese life expectancy so high when their doctors have to muddle through without gods' help?) so if I am able I will come back to it next week.
Next question to the group “Do you think god heals?” Obviously everyone but me was sure he did and this prompted a rather tedious round of anecdotes about it. The one that stands out in my memory was from “female church elder”. A man came to her church once with a crooked thumb – it had been injured in an accident. People prayed for it and it straightened!! Thanks be to god!! Children in their thousands lie in hospitals with cancer, but he can cure a man’s' bent thumb !!
When my turn came I said “It will come as no surprise to anyone that I don't believe that, and it is a specific example of a more general thing. When you speak about Jesus talking to you and a relationship with the lord, or you have a feeling in your heart etc. nobody can dispute it. It is personal to you. But when Christians make claims about their god reaching down to the real world, affecting people and events, making things happen – quite dramatic things like saving peoples lives or protecting them from the devil, then that can be measured. If God is intervening so often to cure people who would otherwise die, or giving Christians better medical outcomes surely that will show up on someone's statistic !! Every Christian in this church – indeed in the country - has their tale to tell of a miraculous rescue from certain death due to the power of prayer. This is a real world claim that can be tested. Compare the medical results of certain conditions in this (Christian) country with those of, say, (non-Christian) Japan, and the difference should be detectable. The person who uncovers this will not only win the Nobel prize and billions of converts to their religion, but their name will resound down the ages alongside Newton and Einstein as someone who has discovered one of the basic truths of the universe !! I don't know what's stopping you !!!” This was quite a long speech even by my standards and I have reproduced it as best as I can. It is something I find important, the mismatch between the picture of the world painted by Christians and the actual world that you see when you open your eyes and look around. The responses? What you would expect. “God doesn't have to prove himself” “The statistics aren't done properly” “When a Christian is healed they don't go back to their doctor so won't show up on a statistic”
The meal group lady said “There is evidence outside that god exists” “Is there – what is it?” I said, pointedly getting my pen poised over my notebook to record these earth shattering revelations. “It's the trees and the stars”. Clearly this ladies level of sophistication about her religion hasn't advanced beyond Sunday school. “There is a perfectly good scientific explanation for these things, and it is backed up by evidence” Somehow this then got onto the absurdity of thinking we were descended from apes but the vicar intervened saying “We are the evidence that god exists” Huhhh?? “You might as well say that I am the evidence that god doesn't exist, or Hindus are evidence that Vishnu exists”
I'm beginning to lose the will to live and am quite glad that next week is the last
Not much else to report about this week. I did talk to the “female church elder” about the Meso-American gods who sacrificed themselves for the world. She said “But did they rise from the dead?” I said “There are plenty of gods who rose from the dead Mithra, Krishna, Horus,” but to be honest I left it there, my heart wasn't in it. Roll on next week and the end of the course.
Next week (last one hurrah!) “What about the church ?”
regards
pgrimes15
