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What if Judas didn't do it?
#67
RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
(February 23, 2023 at 7:49 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(February 23, 2023 at 7:00 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yeah, I do not see how his objection has anything to do with basic Christian doctrine. I suppose a wooden interpretation of "the Word" in John 1:1 could be seen as a form of idealism. Since in Scholastic theology, i.e. Roman Catholic dogma, the existence of God is identical to His essence, the poverty of Randian ideology is exposed by a third option, not considered by binary thinkers. Perhaps, God's existence and His awareness of His existence may be considered distinct yet remain inalienable.

I also think that God's consciousness, for the Scholastics, wouldn't fall easily into the idealist/realist dichotomy. As with God's "love," or God's "desires," the words don't mean what they mean when applied to humans. 

As I understand it, for finite temporal creatures, consciousness is always consciousness of something. This requires two things: the being who is conscious and the object of that consciousness. 

But since God includes everything, there can't be an object of consciousness separate from him. God's consciousness is just existence itself. 

Though I realize there is a lot of diversity in how different Christians address this. I wonder if Berkeley, for example, would be vulnerable to Rand's criticism. (Which is not to say I agree with it, necessarily.)
No Belaqua, you don't get to say that God is this or God does that because one of the many implications of the primacy of existence is that Christianity can not be true so you can't come along and assume the Christian god exists and that its consciousness is different from "finite, temporal creatures" as if there were any other kinds (to exist is to be finite).  No, that's the end of Christianity.  It's over, at least if you accept logic and reality.  One can claim anything one wants about imaginary beings but the primacy of existence principle is what separates fact from fantasy, the real from the imaginary, and true from false.  It's the ultimate razor, cutting fraudulent worldviews off at the root.  Christianity begins by declaring metaphysical subjectivism.  Therefore it is false.  There, I just proved that Christianity is false.  If you accept logic then you must accept this and move on.  Not that I think you or any other Christian will.  Christianity has been exposed and you should really warn your fellow Christians not to steal concepts like true, objective, rational, logical, etc. that have in their genetic root the POE.  

If God existed and it was true that there "can't be an object of consciousness separate from him" then God is not conscious.  Such a notion would commit the fallacy of pure self-reference.  It would be a consciousness conscious only of its own objectless awareness, and that's a direct contradiction.  Consciousness can only ever be a secondary object.  That is that we can observe our own conscious awareness but only after we are aware of some eternal object.  

Actually, there is a way for Christians to overcome this devastating razor.  Just say that your belief isn't rational but you believe it anyway because you want to.  That would be consistent.
"Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,  an intransigent mind, and a step that travels unlimited roads."

"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see."
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Messages In This Thread
What if Judas didn't do it? - by Fake Messiah - February 16, 2023 at 10:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 16, 2023 at 10:26 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 16, 2023 at 10:50 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 16, 2023 at 11:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 17, 2023 at 10:39 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 17, 2023 at 11:35 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 17, 2023 at 11:54 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - February 17, 2023 at 12:24 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - February 17, 2023 at 12:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 17, 2023 at 1:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 18, 2023 at 4:17 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 18, 2023 at 5:11 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 18, 2023 at 7:54 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 18, 2023 at 8:05 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 18, 2023 at 8:30 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 18, 2023 at 9:08 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 19, 2023 at 3:44 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 19, 2023 at 6:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 20, 2023 at 1:04 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Rev. Rye - February 20, 2023 at 9:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - February 18, 2023 at 8:35 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - February 19, 2023 at 6:42 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - February 19, 2023 at 2:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - February 19, 2023 at 7:11 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 20, 2023 at 4:45 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 20, 2023 at 4:15 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Rev. Rye - February 20, 2023 at 5:26 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 20, 2023 at 11:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 30, 2023 at 8:32 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - March 30, 2023 at 11:34 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 9:38 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - March 31, 2023 at 2:38 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 9:06 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - March 31, 2023 at 9:41 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 11:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - March 31, 2023 at 11:38 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 1, 2023 at 12:46 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 1, 2023 at 2:42 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 1, 2023 at 3:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 1, 2023 at 4:04 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 1, 2023 at 4:39 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 12:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 1, 2023 at 7:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 1, 2023 at 9:13 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 6:54 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 11:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 7:28 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 8:31 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 3, 2023 at 11:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 3, 2023 at 11:43 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 4, 2023 at 12:43 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 4, 2023 at 1:47 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 8:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 8:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - April 10, 2023 at 9:01 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 9:03 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - April 10, 2023 at 9:10 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 9:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 9:07 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 9:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 10:41 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Valkyrie - April 10, 2023 at 10:50 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 11, 2023 at 10:09 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 11, 2023 at 10:12 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 11, 2023 at 12:51 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 2, 2023 at 8:06 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 8:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Mister Agenda - February 20, 2023 at 12:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 20, 2023 at 5:37 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 20, 2023 at 6:33 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Rev. Rye - February 20, 2023 at 9:32 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 21, 2023 at 1:52 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Pat Mustard - February 23, 2023 at 8:28 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 22, 2023 at 11:29 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 22, 2023 at 10:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 1:28 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 23, 2023 at 2:01 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 3:10 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 23, 2023 at 3:42 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 23, 2023 at 5:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 9:56 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 23, 2023 at 7:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 23, 2023 at 7:49 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 25, 2023 at 11:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 25, 2023 at 11:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 25, 2023 at 11:57 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 26, 2023 at 12:03 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 26, 2023 at 12:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 27, 2023 at 12:09 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 27, 2023 at 11:33 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 24, 2023 at 1:11 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 23, 2023 at 7:20 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 12:56 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 23, 2023 at 1:12 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 23, 2023 at 4:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Pat Mustard - February 23, 2023 at 5:19 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Architect Of Fate - February 23, 2023 at 7:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 8:06 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Architect Of Fate - February 23, 2023 at 8:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 23, 2023 at 11:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 24, 2023 at 1:51 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 24, 2023 at 1:19 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 8:19 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 8:32 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 23, 2023 at 11:26 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 11:46 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 24, 2023 at 1:34 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 25, 2023 at 10:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 24, 2023 at 1:52 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Paleophyte - February 25, 2023 at 1:39 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Fake Messiah - February 27, 2023 at 4:41 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 25, 2023 at 10:21 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 25, 2023 at 11:55 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 27, 2023 at 12:20 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 12:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Architect Of Fate - February 27, 2023 at 12:33 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 2:58 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 27, 2023 at 3:05 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 3:33 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 27, 2023 at 9:29 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 8:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 7:57 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 27, 2023 at 9:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 9:03 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 8:37 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 9:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 9:44 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 9:56 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 27, 2023 at 10:22 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 12:45 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 12:54 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 28, 2023 at 5:51 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:00 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:01 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:24 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:26 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:34 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:41 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:46 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:48 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:50 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:57 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 28, 2023 at 5:26 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 5:29 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 28, 2023 at 5:40 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 6:10 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 7:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 9:10 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 6:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - March 2, 2023 at 4:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by HappySkeptic - March 2, 2023 at 4:17 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 2, 2023 at 5:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - March 2, 2023 at 5:54 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2023 at 9:24 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2023 at 10:28 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 8:56 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - March 31, 2023 at 2:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2023 at 2:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 3, 2023 at 10:56 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 1, 2023 at 4:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Goosebump - April 1, 2023 at 6:00 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 1, 2023 at 6:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2023 at 6:53 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2023 at 9:07 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2023 at 7:04 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 2, 2023 at 12:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 12:36 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 12:39 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 1:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 2:57 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 3:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 3:28 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 7:34 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - April 2, 2023 at 4:59 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Valkyrie - April 2, 2023 at 6:10 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 7:42 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 9:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - April 2, 2023 at 9:44 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 11:07 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 3, 2023 at 9:30 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 3, 2023 at 10:38 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2023 at 7:57 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 12:17 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 1:18 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 1:50 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 4, 2023 at 2:03 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 9:57 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Lek - April 9, 2023 at 10:30 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 9, 2023 at 10:33 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Lek - April 9, 2023 at 10:50 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Fake Messiah - April 10, 2023 at 1:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 10, 2023 at 2:52 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 8:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 11, 2023 at 12:00 am

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