(December 18, 2011 at 4:33 pm)amkerman Wrote: welsh cake: you state that consciousness is not a primary function of the universe. I hope you will concede that statement is a belief, not a fact.To the best of our knowledge, its a fact. The universe does not demonstrate it is alive or self aware of itself. By using logic to argue we sentient beings are the proof that the universe is contingent upon consciousness to exist you are making the aforementioned fallacy of composition.
Quote:If things actually are "Good" or "bad" it necessarily means that value judgements can be correct or incorrect. Value judgments require a conscious observer. if things inherently have value necessarily consciousness must be a primary law of nature and the universe.Once again you are committing the fallacy of composition. Our feelings, our subjective views on ethics, morals and standards of worth have no bearing at all on reality or the cosmos.
Quote:"atheism is but a response to theistic claims" - I completely agree with you. Atheism offers no insight to whether something that would correctly be termed "God" exists at all.Because that's theism.
Quote:"define God first..." any man-made definition of God would by its very nature be incomplete. From a scientific standpoint the most simplistic term I can come up with is "consciousness as a primary function of the universe"Why do you think reality is dependant upon consciousness?
Second, are you a Pantheist or a Pandeist?
(December 18, 2011 at 5:22 pm)amkerman Wrote: If one is logically honest, as I see it, atheism can not coexist with objectivity or science.We never said it did. Our world-view is not atheism, because atheism is not a world-view. My lack of belief in a creator says nothing about what my position is or what I do believe in.
(December 18, 2011 at 5:37 pm)amkerman Wrote: I can not define God.Then you've managed to kill your own thread before its even begun.
I think you'll appreciate I can see no reason to continue further if you don't know what is it that you want to discuss.