epimethean sorry i wasnt trying to twist your words. I too am having trouble keeping up wit the speed of the converstaion. Typo's are sure to abound. If you believe that consciousness is real though, then you believe it exists apart from your personal ideas about what consciousness is. if consciousness exists apart from your ideas about what it is, it has to be a property of the universe. The only things which science or humanity believes to be inherent to the universe are forces. Humans do not exist because they are inherent to the universe, they exist because the universe has (through various processes) created them. Those processes are the only things that can be said to be inherently real. the things they create (everything in the universe) are thought to be mere chance of the interactions of universal forces. Those creations are not believed to exist outside of our ideas about what they are. If we could not see the suns light, or feel its warmth, humanity would not beleive the sun existed. Stars are not inherent to the universe, everything in the universe is not a star. We simply have notions about what stars are, and are able to observe them in the physical universe. The sun can not exist apart from our ideas about what it is.
Gravity, for instance, however, we believe to be inherent in the universe. Even if we had no ideas for why things tended to seek a center mass, science would never the less except it as true. It is an observable process which acts on physical things, but it is not physical. The same can be true of magnatism. If consciousness is real exists independent of our ideas of what it is or how it is caused, would be described as a force of nature.
Darwinning: "you cant be confident in your reasoning, because the brain from which your consciousness arises is fallible"- yes, that's true if you believe consciousness is an emergent function of complex systems. I believe that consciousness, and everything I perceive, is real beyond my own mind, however. I believe reality is objective. While I can't know that my reasoning is correct (and I admittedly don't, although I believe it is, if only some of the time) I can be confident that it might be correct, because I believe that some things are inherently true, and others inherently false.
Gravity, for instance, however, we believe to be inherent in the universe. Even if we had no ideas for why things tended to seek a center mass, science would never the less except it as true. It is an observable process which acts on physical things, but it is not physical. The same can be true of magnatism. If consciousness is real exists independent of our ideas of what it is or how it is caused, would be described as a force of nature.
Darwinning: "you cant be confident in your reasoning, because the brain from which your consciousness arises is fallible"- yes, that's true if you believe consciousness is an emergent function of complex systems. I believe that consciousness, and everything I perceive, is real beyond my own mind, however. I believe reality is objective. While I can't know that my reasoning is correct (and I admittedly don't, although I believe it is, if only some of the time) I can be confident that it might be correct, because I believe that some things are inherently true, and others inherently false.
