(December 20, 2011 at 6:09 pm)amkerman Wrote: if consciousness is an emergent function of complex systems, it is not a property of the universe, but just something that can be found within the universe, like snowflakes. But holding such a belief necessitates that you don't actually believe snowflakes exist outside of your own mind.
Does the world cease to exist when I close my eyes? Perhaps, but I do not believe that to be the case.
The label "snowflake" only exists in my mind (and perhaps you have a similar label), but the cold, white, icy thing could still be a real thing.
(December 20, 2011 at 6:09 pm)amkerman Wrote: You argue for a physical universe that give rise to non-physical phenomenom. You admit that these non phyiscal phenomena are the only means humanity has to percieve physical reality, but that the non-physical phnomena do not exist apart from the idea that they arise from interaction of physical forces. If that is true then nothing we percieve consciously atually exists apart from our ideas about what consciousness is "some interaction of physical forces".
It can exist alright, you're talking about whether I can prove and know it exists. I have said I cannot, but neither can you.
(December 20, 2011 at 6:09 pm)amkerman Wrote: If something does not exist apart from our ideas of what it is, it is not real. If we believe consciousness is not real, we can not believe that observations made through consciousness are.
I do not believe that the observations we make are by definition true. They do seem to help me predict future perception, so they have some merit.
(December 20, 2011 at 6:09 pm)amkerman Wrote: While you could believe there are physical forces acting in the universe that gives rise to conscious thought, it would be illogical to hold any belief about what those forces were.
I disagree. It would be illogical to claim I know what those forces are (I don't believe I have). I can believe all I want.
(December 20, 2011 at 6:09 pm)amkerman Wrote: all physical forces are observations of a conscious mind, that consciousness you don't believe to exist apart from your idea of it, so it is not real. If it is not real, then the observations made by through consciousness can not be believed to be real either. Snowflakes then exist only in your conscious mind. While something that resembles a snowflake may or may not actually exist in the pysical world, any belief that such is true is based solely on something which you describe doesn't actually exist as inherent to the universe.
More of the same. I'll stop repeating myself. But I'll try to summarize.
My perceptions, reasoning and logic abilities are not perfect. I have seen enough evidence to that point during my lifetime. Therefore, everything I perceive must be regarded with suspicion; including rational thought and reasoning. I believe without proof that a real physical world exists, because I have been able to predict perceptions with a certain regularity. I use models to describe that world, but I do not believe those models are without fault.
Does that help?
