Hello soulcalm17

[soulcalm17]

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Surah Al Fath, 48:27
“Indeed, Allah will fulfil His Messenger’s vision in all truth: Allah willing, you will surely enter the Sacred Mosque, in security—some with heads shaved and others with hair shortened—without fear. He knew what you did not know, so He first granted you the triumph at hand”.

Those lines were written after 632, which is when Mohamed was dead and it is after that that some guys wrote the Koran.
In other words, they went into some sacred church, which I don’t know which one they are talking about. There was only 1 sacred church in Saudi Arabia?
You said that in 630, Mohamed and friends came to Mecca and went into some sacred church.
The text does not state 630 and it does not state who will enter the sacred church. In other words, if they had failed to enter in 630, there is no expiration date. Muslims could have succeeded in entering he sacred church in the year 2010 and you would say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.
It is similar in the case of Israel. The claim is that it was prophecized that jews would get back Israel and they did in 1948.

How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that in the 19 th century, an X number of elements would be discovered and that a certain person, I guess Mendelev would work on the periodic table of elements?
How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that a very powerful weapon, called a nuclear weapon would be developed during the 193x?
It need not be something of a scientific nature. Mohamed could have drawn a map of New York, showed all the street names, all the bridges with names, a list of mayors.
Now that would be impressive.

Sorry, I'm not skillful to make quote and hide content. I need to repeat about Al Fath, 48:27, and the rest is continuation of content
My Reply:
Firstly, your assumption that the Prophet Muhammad entered a church is a mistake. In the text, it is not written church, but mosque. The mosque referred to in this verse is the Grand Mosque (Masjidil Haram), which is now a pilgrimage destination. Again, you discuss the issue of writing the Quran, which I think I explained in the previous reply. Likewise regarding the issue of year details and other historical details.

If you want the Prophet Muhammad to predict the discovery of chemical elements, nuclear weapons, maps of New York, etc. My question is, why was those said at that time? People at that time didn’t need those complete information, and it had nothing to do with their daily needs. I have explained to you that the verses in the Quran are not empty verses without useful meaning for humans. So whatever information is included in the Quran, God must also ask humans to reflect on these verses and take lessons from them.

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For this one
Surah Kahfi 18:23-24
I’m guessing you are referring to this text:
Source:
https://quran.com/18

And never say of anything, “I will definitely do this tomorrow,” without adding, “if Allah so wills!” But if you forget, then remember your Lord, and say, “I trust my Lord will guide me to what is more right than this.” They had remained in their cave for three hundred years, adding nine.1

1.   The prophet was asked by some jewish about the story about “people in the cave”. The prophet said that he would answer him tomorrow expecting the revelation come but without saying insha Allah (If Allah willing). So the revelation delayed. The delaying was not short, but in 15 days, when finally the answer come as Surah Kahfi (18) :23-24.

Ok, some guys had remained in a cave for 300 y or 309 y.
I did not see anything about a revelation and 15 days but I guess the objective here is for me to take a guess.
Like I said, I don’t know Mohamed and what is going on in his head. Perhaps he needed time to meditate or he wanted to wait for some vision.
I am not seeing solid evidence of anything supernatural or anything that requires a god or alien powers.

My Reply:
No, he didn't need to meditate or something. The fact is Muhammad was just waiting for the revelation, but it didn't come the next day. This is also proof that the Prophet Muhammad could not arrange events according to his own plans. If the Prophet was a deceiver, he could have said what he promised in the next day. He could tell wrong stories about the people in the cave. And he insisted that his opinion was correct, because he was a prophet.

But in fact it's not. The Prophet continued to wait for the revelation to come down, and did not dare to say anything wrong about the story of the young man in the cave.

The question is, if Muhammad peace be upon him just crafted the Quran by himself, why would he wait for so long to give an answer to his people? For the first case, he could easily answer the next day so that he can keep his promise. For second case, he could easily make “the verses that clear his wife name” in order that people not give bad opinion on him.

He could have waited for the next day or waited 15 days or maybe 30 days. I think it is fine. If it works, if the believers are impressed, then the religion works.
Like I said, I don’t know Mohamed and what is going on in his head. Perhaps he needed time to meditate or he wanted to wait for some vision.
I am not seeing solid evidence of anything supernatural or anything that requires a god or alien powers.
Am am not seeing anything impossible for a human to do.
It is possible that the alien is real and the alien was busy and he said, ok, give me 15 days and I will tell them what to do.
It is possible that the alien is just a vision that Mohamed is having and it took time for something to pop up in his mind.
I really don’t know what the case is.

The most important thing is for me to understand how your logic works and I am slowly learning how it works as long as you describe that such things are a mystery to you.

The rest of the stuff is probably of a similar concept so I am going to skip and jump to point F.

f.    Personal information of Prophet
There is no personal information of the Prophet in The Quran. The Muhammad’s name just mention in 4 times in the Quran, which is fewer than other mentions of other prophets. For example Moses 134 times in 34 surahs, as well as Jesus mentioned dozens of times. So if Muhammad had made the Quran himself, wouldn’t he have given himself more credit or at least talked about his struggle more often?

Mohamed is a mystery to you. You don’t understand why he did what he did. Maybe you should accept that you don’t know him personally. You should accept that you aren’t in his brain and you don’t know what operation are happening in his computer (brain). And I don’t know either.
I have seen all sorts of people in this world. There are a lot of bizarre people.
To me, it doesn’t seem like a huge mystery, so huge that I am going to think that a super intelligent alien wrote the Koran.

It is a mystery how Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale wrote the Back to the Future story. Probably they typed it on a typewriter? Is that it? If I get a typewriter, would I produce a superb story?
How did Mozart compose such beautiful music? Was it his pen and paper? Can I get the same tools?
How does electricity work? What is light?

There are a lot of mysteries. Should we claim that it is some alien god thing behind these things, whenever we encounter a mystery, whenever we encounter something that doesn’t match normal expectations?

My Reply:
Well, I even claim that both mysterious and normal thing, should be God behind all those things. That is because simple thing: All processed things need a processor. All created things, need a creator. There should be prime mover and first cause of all things logically.
 
For some people have a good talent, yeah God must give them that talent. And for the example that you give, everyone can learn from it, and "can do the same thing" with it. If someone knows and analyzes the Back of Future Story, they can make a different story with the same structure of that story, it might be even better. The same thing goes with Mozart's music.
But for the Al Quran, about 1400 years continue, but no one can produce the book with the same composition like the Quran. FYI, there were many poets in Arabic who could do the best thing with Arabic. But none of them equalize the Quran.
And no, Muhammad peace be upon him not a mystery to me, nor to all Muslims. His track record and his story were very clear to reach. And very clear to understand. If you do research on Islam, you will find bulk of the history of Muhammad, even with his day to day activities that are recorded by his companions. And the method to get the information from the prophet is very rigorous in Islam. Our scholars assess the chain of the narrator of ahadith step by step (about the honesty of the narrators, their memorizing quality, etc.) and even present the biography of all the chain of narrators. Not a single information of hadith being easily accepted before scholars assess the narrators. And they will classify those hadiths in general as valid (sahih) or not valid (maudhu) or weak (dhaif). Many non-Muslim researchers are amazed with our scholars working on it.

2.  The Prophet used previous books to make Quran

You are claiming that Mohamed did not know how to read. I don’t know if this claim is true. It seems to be popular among believers to use this kind of argument.
Mormon believers tell me that their Joseph Smith was not educated and therefore, he could not be the author of the Book of Mormon.
Christians tell me that the students or whatever of Jesus were not intelligent, they were fisherman, did not know how to read and write and then, magic happening and suddenly, they could speak all languages and write these stories.

Too bad there aren’t reputable sources, reputable journalists, school papers that can back up these claims.

Note that I am not saying that Mohamed read a book.

My reply:
The fact that Muhammad could not read and write is widely accepted, both by Muslims and non-Muslim researchers. The list of non-Muslim researchers who admit that the Prophet Muhammad could not read and write includes: Rainer Maria Rilke (Germany), Annemarie Schimmel (Germany), Dr. Shaberk (Austria), Professor TVN Persaud (Canada), Professor Joe Leigh Simpson (USA), and many more..

3.  The Prophet used someone’s help
 
Was it any Jew or Christian that help Muhammad to create the Quran? Well, in the authentic (shahih) hadith, we will only find single hadith about the encounter between The Prophet and someone called Waraqa bin Naufal (a Christian). However The Prophet met Waraqah bin Naufal after the revelation came to him, not before revelation. Besides, in the hadith, Waraqah even testifies that Muhammad peace be upon him was the Prophet. So how could he have been the one who would help him to write the Quran?
Even if it wasn’t Waraqah and it was other Christian or Jew who would help The Prophet to write The Quran, how could they allow him to write verses like these:
a.   They are surely infidels who say “God is The Christ son of Mary” (Al Maidah, 5:72)
b.   You will be find the Jews and idolaters most excessive in hatred of those who believe (Al Maidah, 5:82)
How can it make sense that Jew or Christian would help The Prophet write something like that?

I don’t think a jew or christian helped Mohamed create the Koran.
According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Thus, a group of scribes, most importantly Zayd, collected the verses and produced a hand-written manuscript of the complete book.

The Prophet and someone called Waraqa bin Naufal (a Christian). However The Prophet met Waraqah bin Naufal after the revelation came to him, not before revelation. Besides, in the hadith, Waraqah even testifies that Muhammad peace be upon him was the Prophet. So how could he have been the one who would help him to write the Quran?

It is possible that not everything is recorded in the Koran and related written material.
Waraqah can testify all he likes. I understand that he was impressed with Mohamed and that is fine, but I don’t place much value into such testimony, specially with matters of religion.
We need modern critics to question Mohamed. Better yet, give me 2 prophets and we can place them in 2 separate rooms and we can question them. if the jewish go is really telecommunicating with these 2, we would be able to find out.

The most likely explanation is that christians were going from city to city, land to land, country to country and spreading their religion. Some would listen and some would not. That is how christianity spread in the first few centuries.
When such a naturalistic and obvious explanation is present, I have no need to believe in magical invisible alien people who don’t show themselves.

But thank you for considering the possibility of a jew or christian that sat with Mohamed and showed him some text and helped Mohamed write the Koran. At least you are considering a few. I don’t know why you are avoiding the obvious possibilities.

My Reply:
I have already told you that the Prophet Muhammad only met Waraqah bin Naufal during the prophetic period. It was only a one-time meeting and for a short time. There has never been a historical record that states that the Prophet Muhammad studied regularly with a particular Christian priest.
So, you want to believe that God exists, only if you see it with your own eyes? OK, now I understand your position. I already stated previously that God is outside of universe, and our eyes has limitation. So he couldn’t possibly be seen.
However, I remind you, later in the afterlife, you will know that God exists. And if you don't repent and don't accept the truth, your knowledge of God is no longer useful, and you will get justice from God, He will punish you.

4.  The Prophet got it from satan
Well, I guess you denied this possibility. Because you didn’t believe the satan existence. But I just give reason that it would impossible if it come from satan:
a.   We as a muslim are taught to seek refuge from satan before starting to recite Al Quran
“O, when you recite The Quran, seek refuge in God from Satan the execrable” (An Nahl 16:98)
b.   Numerous verses in the Quran declaring satans as the mortal foe of humans

I understand why christians would make such a claim. Islam seems like a foreign religion. It comes from an arab. Also, christianity already exists, which is the true religion from their POV, so when a new religion gets invented, it must obviously be from Satan or something.
If there is a problem with the Bible, the most obvious solution would be for the jewish god to correct the Bible immediately instead of waiting 600 y. This is quite obvious to me.

I suppose it is possible that it is the work of Satan and that he wants you to worship some other god instead of worshiping the jewish god. How can we be sure that the god of the Koran is the same as the god of the jews?

My Reply:
Yes, God could have corrected people's understanding of the Bible right when the deviation occurred. However, in reality, He did not. He has great wisdom regarding this matter. God is a living entity with absolute will. Nothing could influence him.

If God always corrects people's mistakes at a moment's notice, then His initial goal of creating temporary life in this world (where there is life and there is death) will not be realized. God has previously said that He wants to put humans into a state of trial. So that God will see, when the deviations occured, which humans use their reason and can still search for the truth. Where are the people who truly do good and still believe in God's justice. Later in the afterlife, God will reward each soul individually with justice. In the afterlife, God will not hold any more tests. Because it's time to receive the results. At that time, God will appear to all believers, as you now expected. Non-believers will surely realize this too. However, the difference is that they are filled with regret because they previously did not believe.

How could it be possible that satan helped the Prophet to write verses that cursing himself and declaring him as the enemy. And why would satan tell his plan to tempt humans and expose himself like that. Therefore it is impossible for satan to have held the Prophet write The Quran.

It depends on how stupid Satan is.
If Satan is absolutely stupid, has very little knowledge of humans, he would show up and say “Hey, I am Satan, I am evil, worship me.”

A more clever Satan would say “Hey, I am god. Worship me. Don’t worship Satan. Look over there, that guy is Satan!”
BTW, do you have a picture of your god and Satan?

My Reply:
Satan is described in the Quran as bad behavior. First on the human creation, he was envy. And later on he and his descendants provoke humankind to do the bad thing.
The good things and bad things are very clearly explained and understandable by humans. So it would be very clear that humans know who are the true satans by their behavior.
 
Indicate of satan: invite people to do damage to themselves, or damage the environment. Influencing people to worship other than true God, or even to not admit that there was no God.
 
Indicate of God: invite people to do good things for themselves and the environment. Influencing people to worship only him so that the benefits turn back to the people themselves.
 
Rationally, we cannot see the God, because he is out of the universe. So, we don't have a picture of him. About satans, we also don't need to picture them. They are also unseen but still the creatures.

Now I would ask you, Quran is exist. It is one of the phenomena of the nature in universe, as well as others. It is impossible being made by human. Then, how could you explain how it came into existence? Was it like the causing of life, which is science has not now yet? Or just Occam Razor, that it just the way it did. No more explanation.

Yes, in the sciences, we go with Occam’s Razor. There is a reason why we go with Occam’s Razor? Do you know why?

You are asking me if it is possible that it is man made? Sure, why not.
I didn’t see anything extraordinarily intelligent in the Koran so far. I have read 2 pages.
I have read all the Bible. Nothing extraordinarily intelligent. It looks like the product from primitive humans.
There are no valuable predictions in the Bible. it is just vagueries.

My Reply:
It’s ok from your POV, that it is possible man made. But many experts in Islamic and Quran studies said that it is seemingly impossible. Like a magic. Professor Angelika Neuwirth was one of the example I already post in my previous post.

Was it like the causing of life, which is science has not now yet?

Well, explain to me how it rains.

My Reply:
I still didn’t get your means. Explain about rains? Or about the way the revelation was revealed?

That it was God who communicate to human. He is unseen

So, why doesn’t he communicate with people right now?

My Reply:
Depend on what communicate you would define. Many muslims communicate with God everyday with their prayer. They performing salah, make an invoke to God. They got their answer from God, their problem in their life solved. They do communicate with God.
If communicate means the direct revelations like the time of the prophets, of course it wouldn’t happen. It’s because God already decided that Prophet Muhammad was the last of His messenger.

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