Freedom of Religion

[genkaus]

What do you mean when you say that I wear it like a badge of "honor"?
IMHO it is honorable to own up to the truth.
So why shouldn't I consider my honesty as being worthy of honor?
At least I'm not running around proclaiming to "know" that magick is real.
I would think that you should give me credit for that much.

The truth being that you are incapable of knowing whether or not magic is compatible with reality or not?
If you are incapable of performing the simple mental exercise that would get you the answer, I really don't think that that is something to be proud of. That's like a person telling his math teacher to give him some marks in the exam because he admitted that he is incapable of answering the question.

Honesty about ignorance is honorable only if it is followed by attempts to correct it - which you haven't shown so far.

Lack of knowledge on what subject? What specifically are you talking about?

Specifically, whether magic is compatible with reality.

Two things here:
First:
Cannot justify my beliefs? Excuse me? Justify to who?

To anyone who may ask for a justification. If they are rationally justifiable, then the matter of who asks justification is irrelevant.

I can justify them to myself, and that's all that's required.

But can you justify them to yourself rationally? If so, then you should be able to present it.

I shouldn't need to have to justify them to you.

If you demand my respect for them, then yes, you do.

After all, if I could justify them to you then they'd become your beliefs as well.
I mean surely? If I could justify them to you why wouldn't you believe them?

If they are justified rationally, then yes, they would.

I shouldn't need to have to justify my beliefs to you?

Is that a question? If yes, then asked and answered.

I most certainly don't demand that you justify your beliefs to me.

You may, if you so wish.

In fact, to be perfectly blunt about it, I don't care what you believe.

Neither would I expect you to.

As long as you don't try to claim to speak for God and claim that God hates me

Why would you care even if I did?

I truly couldn't care less what you believe.

And I'm not demanding any respect regarding my beliefs. You are. If you want respect for your beliefs, you need to provide justification - its that simple.

Secondly:

What do you mean by "sanctioning my beliefs" by giving them respect?
No one is asking you to give my beliefs, respect.
All I ask is that you give me respect and not pass judgment on me because of my beliefs.

I respect your right to believe whatever the hell you want, which is evident from the fact that I'm not coercing you to change them. As for your beliefs themselves, I judge them to be irrational, illogical and deserving of little besides my contempt.

And since I know nothing about you apart from your beliefs and your words, what else would I judge you on? Or would you prefer that I abstain from judgment, thereby abstaining from the use of my own mind and rationality?

It's a pretty simple request I would think.
I don't judge people based on their beliefs.

Why not?

I can even respect a devout Christian as long as they aren't a proselytizing zealot.

Why? What causes you to grant them that respect?

Just because I think Christianity is utterly stupid doesn't mean that I automatically think that all Christians are stupid.

Stupid? No. Deluded? Well....

I can understand how some people can justify it.

And can you understand if the justification is rational? If it is compatible with reality?

Who knows how they interpret scriptures?
Who knows how much of it they accept as verbatim?
Who knows how much they see as mere analogies and metaphors?

They do, hopefully.

As long as they aren't proselytizing at me, I wouldn't even bother to ask.
And I would respect them for their beliefs.
Even though I personally feel that the doctrine itself is impossible to justify.

Feelings have nothing to do with it. Either it is possible to justify or it isn't. And if you don't consider it to be, on what grounds are you granting them your respect?

So I'm only requesting the same conditions for respect that I offer anyone else.

You have decided to refrain from using your mind and your rationality in the matter of beliefs - thereby abstaining from judgment - and you expect others to do the same?

Baloney.
That's your personal world view again.

And how is that an argument for it being wrong?

Evidently you seem to think that it should be easy to see conclusions that you draw.

I do.

You are basing that entirely upon what you deem to be 'rational'.

And the error in my conclusion can come if and only if what I deem to be rational and what is rational are two different things. Can you point to any such error?

You have accepted certain things in your world view and that's the lens through which you see the world.

I've accepted things which I have found to be inescapable and undeniable.

And now you're basically expecting everyone else to see the world through your lens, lest you deem them to be 'irrational'.

Why, no? I would never expect anyone to accept my beliefs as rational simply on my say-so. Nor would I expect them do so to avoid being called 'irrational'. But when I'm confronted with irrationality, I will not hesitate to pass judgment upon it accordingly.

I personally cannot rule out the possibility that reality might have a spiritual essence.

Then that incapacity would doom you to live in irrationality forever.

If you believe that you can, more power to you!
I can't.
For you to even think that I could is utter nonsense.
This would be like a Christian telling you that you could believe in Christianity if you really wanted to.

Yes, I think by now everyone has become well-aware of your mental limitations. No need to keep repeating them.

You're trying to tell me that I can convince myself that there cannot possibly be a spiritual essence to reality?[
Just because you think that's a rational conclusion?

Since you have convinced yourself without any reason that there possibly can be a spiritual essence to reality, it wouldn't be too difficult to convince yourself that it cannot be possible.

However, that is not what I want or care about. You made the statement that "there can possibly be a spiritual essence to reality". That statement is incompatible with my worldview. So, either my worldview is in error or that statement is false.

If it is the former, then it behooves me to correct it. But for that, your statement would require justification. And since I have gone through quite some effort to make my worldview rational and logically consistent and you have not made any effort to even present a rational justification - all I can assume is that the statement is not rationally justifiable and pass judgment upon it accordingly.

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In Abra's defense, because I absolutely hate "you must accept this axiom" statements.....no. Abra does not have to accept an axiom at face value, no axiom makes anything possible, in and of itself. Axioms don't have such powers, any more than witches do.

Acceptance at face-value is neither intended nor desired. But once you discover that a particular axiom is the basis and necessary component of all knowledge that you have, then to not accept it would be dishonest.