(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: According to the Quran Jesus wasn’t crucified but Allah made it seem that way, thereby foisting Biblical Christianity on the masses:
And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]: S. 4:157
Allah lied to everyone about the crucifixion to fool them into believing the wrong thing?!
It doesn't say anywhere in the verse that Allah "lied" to everyone. Rather, the verse means that it just appeared to those particular group that they crucified Jesus, but this is not what happened as per the Quran. It says that the Jews of Bani Israel killed a different man in place of Jesus (whoever it is), but some wrongly thought that it was Jesus. That doesn't mean that Allah lied to them, though. It is more likely that Allah deceived them (indirectly), but that might have been done for a good reason because the ones who were deceived may have been amongst the enemies of Jesus.
As Muslims, we believe that Jesus was not crucified nor killed, but that he was only raised up (alive) by God as a manifestation of the Truth when seized by his opponents who tried to kill him. We believe that God lifted him from the earth without leaving any trace of him to protect him from the harm and humiliation that we was about to face.
To my knowledge, no contemporary writing or immediately following Jesus' time mention a thing about some the extraordinary events surrounding the story of his alleged crucifixion. None of the Roman records even mention Jesus who supposedly died in a most dramatic fashion. And there are many contradictions in the crucifixion accounts that I have gathered so far. So, all these confusions indicate that the truthfulness of the crucifixion has a very weak authenticity.
Read the following passage on crucixion and then take a look at the article that I have linked below:
Quote:Early depictions of the Passion of Christ tended to omit the crucifixion, and there are very few representations of it in the Early Christian and Early Byzantine period. The Basque Crucifixion was shown to be a modern fake created by Basque separatists; who's represented in the Alexamenos Graffito will never be certain, nor can it be dated with much certainty; and the fresco in a tomb on the Esquiline pre-dates the Christian period by several centuries. Several graffiti from Pompeii mention crucifixion but as a Roman insult or punishment (source). Although the Romans used crucifixion regularly, again in pre-Christian art it was very rarely depicted. There are very few images of crucifixion, and not all can be linked to Jesus' crucifixion.
http://phdiva.blogspot.com/2011/08/early...ixion.html
On a related note, I find the belief that an innocent man (or God?) was tortured and crucified just for the sins that other people committed morally unjustifiable. I mean, do you think that it is fair that Adam's sins are passed down to innocent babies, then those babies when they grow up commit sins, and their sins are passed onto the shoulders of others, and then all those sins are passed on to the shoulder of a single man who acquits them by dying on a cross?
Now, even if you believe in retributive justice, which is supposed to go against everything that Christianity teaches, it is still a basic fact of life which includes Christians, that, to put it in the form of a syllogism for the sake of clarity:
1. God never does anything evil.
2. It is evil to punish (or sacrifice, for that matter) one person for what another person did let alone the sins of millions of people.
3. Therefore, God does not, never has, and never will punish one person for what another person did, without changing so that He no longer has the characteristic mentioned in #1.
Do you agree with that logic or not? And if not, then why not? I would just like to hear from you what your thoughts are on that.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If Allah does decieve (has decieved), then it is something that he does. God doesn't change, so this is part of what makes him him.
And, as I explained earlier, deceiving doesn't always have to be bad.
We believe that Allah deceived certain people who had evil intentions and/or tried to assassinate the Prophet only as a way of destroying their plans. This is not evil.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: "And verily, those before them did deceive/scheme (makara), but all deception/scheming is Allah's (falillahi al-makru). He knows what every person earns, and the disbelievers will know who gets the good end. S. 13:42"
"Qurtubi observes that some scholars have considered the words ‘best of schemers’ to be one of Allah’s beautiful names. Thus one would pray, ‘O Best of Schemers, scheme for me!’ Qurtubi also reports that the Prophet used to pray, ‘O Allah, scheme for me, and do not scheme against me!’ (Qurtubi, IV, pp. 98-99; cf. Zamakhshari, I, p. 366)." (Ibid., p. 166)
"Best of schemers" is not one of the names of Allah and it is never written as a pronoun in the Quran. Therefore, this source from Al-Qurtubi is not reliable.
The only reason for Allah's scheming is to crush the evil intentions of the non-believers who tried to destroy the message of Islam sent to their community or those who tried to harm the Muslims. The word scheme in itself might be something negative, but when it is done against those who create their own evil schemes, in order that their plans may be demolished, then it is positive. I don't know why anyone would think that this is not positive.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The Quran states that Allah actually raises wicked individuals to deceive and scheme:
Even so have we placed in every city, ringleaders of its wicked ones, to scheme therein (liyamkuroo): but only against themselves shall they scheme (yamkuroona)! and they know it not. S. 6:123
What this means is that in every town Allah has made leaders, people who plan, who planned against Islam and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). although the reality is that they didn't plan against anyone but themselves ("and they know it not") because in the end they always lost.
Also, the reason Allah does this might be to test the people, i.e. whether they will follow the wicked leaders or the Messenger of Allah. He may also do this as a lesson for others.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Allah commands people to do evil so that he can then have a reason to destroy them:
And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, AND AFTERWARD they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation. S. 17:16
No, that verse certainly doesn't mean that Allah commands people to do evil.
When the folk who live at ease become disobedient to Allah's message to them (i.e. where it says "We send commandment"), it is only then that they were doomed for destruction. So, it is quite obvious that when Allah says in the Quran, "When We decree that a habitation should be destroyed," it is not meant that Allah wanted to destroy them without any reason. Rather, He destroyed them after their disobedience to Him.
The people in those communities committed acts of disobedience, wickedness, mischief, cruelty, and tyranny and then even the common people started to follow them - and as a result - they brought the torment of Allah upon themselves.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Next wrod: "kayd": to deceive/beguile/circumvent, means of evading/eluding
Allah is portrayed as stooping down to the level of the deceivers and liars by acting like them in his use of guile:
They are devising guile (ya keedoona kaydan), and I am devising guile (Wa akeedu kaydan). S. 86:15-16
I find that perfectly moral because Allah is devising guiles only against evil people.
When others are devising guiles, Allah also devises guiles (or deceptive strategies) in order to outmaneuver their evil plans.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Next word: "khida/khuda/khada" : To hide/conceal, deceive or outwit, pretend
They (think to) deceive Allah (Yukhadiaaoona) and those who believe, while they only deceive (yakhdaaoona) themselves, and perceive (it) not! S. 2:9
And if they would deceive thee (yakhdaaooka), then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers, S. 8:6
That verse simply means that those people thought that they could deceive Allah, but actually they only deceived themselves by thinking so, and they were unaware of it.
In other words, Allah did indirectly deceive them by derailing their evil plans of killing the Prophet but did not directly deceive them by making them, for instance, think that paganism is the truth. It is they who deceived themselves (as mentioned in Surah 6:123 as well). It was their own arrogance and their lust for power and worldly good that made them believe in paganism and it is precisely the same thing that made them deceived in the end.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Satan accused Allah of misleading or deceiving him:
He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray (aghwaytanee), verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. S. 7:16
[Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me (aghwaytanee), I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead (walaoghwiyannahum) them all. S. 15:39
What makes this last reference interesting is that Satan promises to do to mankind what Allah did to him, namely, pervert/deceive/mislead people.
That is not the point of that verse, because if you read the previous verses starting from verse 33 in Surah 15, you will know that the entire passage speaks about Satan's refusal in bowing to Adam because he was arrogant. So, only because of Satan's arrogance and for not bowing to Adam, Allah led him astray.
The problem is that you can't obtain the complete meaning and the context of those verses without looking at the previous verses in the same chapter.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Here is a text where the Quran acknowledges that the Devil was right in that last bit, since Allah does pervert/deceive/mislead people:
And my sincere counsel will not profit you, if I desire to counsel you sincerely, if God desires to pervert you (yughwiyakum); He is your Lord, and unto Him you shall be returned.' S. 11:34
No, there is nothing in it which implies that the Devil is right in misleading others.
The verse itself is talking about the people of Prophet Noah who rejected him and wanted him to prove himself to be true, i.e. by letting affliction and disaster come to them. Why? Because In verse 33 (the previous verse) the Quran mentions Prophet Noah and continues to do so until the end of the next verse. In verse 34, Noah is telling the rejecters that even if he gives them good advice it will not help them if Allah leaves them to go astray. The reason Allah leaves them to go astray is because of their own rejection of the message of Allah and their evil deeds along with their rejection of the Prophet.
(July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You may contend that Allah only deceives unbelievers who deserve it. The problem with this assertion is that Muslim scripture teaches that Allah doesn’t merely deceive unbelievers but also his followers.
eg: Allah deceived Muhammad into thinking that the fighting men at Badr were fewer in number than they actually were:
Yes, and when Allah deceived his followers, He only did that for a positive outcome. It was something that helped and encouraged His followers during the battle (as opposed to harming them). As the verse says, Allah made the number of enemies at Badr appear as a few in the eyes of his followers, to boost their confidence and to encourage them to fight, because the Muslims have been the victims of constant persecution, slaughter, assassination, theft, attempted murder, captivation, and deception for about 13 years by the pagans, for no other reason than practicing and preaching Islam.
So, this "deception" was actually a display of the grace and mercy of Allah toward the believers. This was more like an "illusion" that Allah created in the minds of the Muslim fighters so that they can enter and win the battle even though they were outnumbered by their enemies. This had a positive result in the end, for the Muslims, and that's why I do not think that this type of deception was a bad thing or something immoral, as you seem to suggest, fr0d0.
An Extra Credit Question (2 points!)
Well, since you were talking about how much Allah deceives (out of context), please allow me to challenge you with another question that is related to this subject and Christianity.
Question:
Don't you think that God indirectly deceived people in the Bible when He made Jesus appear as he was born of a father and a mother, while the Bible says that Jesus was born to a virgin? Why did God deceive the people then? I'm not saying that this deception was evil. I'm only asking you to tell me how you would explain or justify this. (Afterall, Muslims believe that Jesus was born to a virgin also).
When Jesus was born, people at that time thought that he was an illegitimate child and that Mary was adulteress. In the Bible itself, there are verses which show that some people didn't believe that Jesus was born to a sinlge mother because they thought that he had a father. Jesus protested to them by saying "We are not illegitimate children. The only Father we have is God himself" (John 8:41). Here are some other verses in the Bible that speak about this:
Bible Wrote:
This is my answer:
I think that one of the lessons of this particular deception in the life of Jesus goes something like this:
Don't rush to judgement too quickly. Jesus was born to a single mother, but the judgement by others was that she was an adulteress and that Jesus had a father. One time, Jesus saw people stoning an adulteress, but then he told them not to rush to judgement. He did not judge the Samaritan the way that people around him did and it keeps on going. The Islamic story continues the message of no judgement by saying: Just because you saw what you saw, it does not necessarily mean that it was true. Again, don't rush to judgement. Very much as when Jesus was born.
However, unfortunately, many Muslims and Christians and people of other religions have not paid attention to this message and are too quick in judging others.
