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Justification for Foundational Belief
#22
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief
(July 27, 2012 at 5:13 am)genkaus Wrote:
(July 26, 2012 at 9:34 pm)Skepsis Wrote: This is what I suspected. I had to ask if there were ways to show the truth of foundational beliefs without using the belief because I really didn't know.

My response to that is showing that since the very idea of "truth" depends on those foundational beliefs, any proposition questioning them is self-defeating. Its not so much that those beliefs are true, but that they simply cannot be false.

(July 26, 2012 at 9:34 pm)Skepsis Wrote: I understand, but this still presumes the truth of the beliefs. I think this is a fair justification, however, because these beliefs have no base justification and cannot have a base justification.

Rather than justification, I prefer calling it validation. You are not trying to find out if you are correct, but constantly trying to figure out if you could be wrong.

(July 26, 2012 at 9:34 pm)Skepsis Wrote: This sounds a lot like solipsism. You know you exist and reason that reality does too by its non-contradiction, but you can't know if anyone else shares your reality.

Solipsism is a tough cookie to beat, but the position outlined here is tougher. In solipsism, the rest of the reality is the construct of your own mind and thus can be reasonably refuted with a few mental exercises. A common argument for solipsism is given as your dreams - where you exist in a world that in not real. However, I find that that reality can be altered or manipulated and your knowledge and imagination in that corresponds to what you can know or imagine in the actual reality.

The proposition here is more like that of matrix - that another intelligence is constructing this reality, therefore, there is atleast one other that shares it. However, in such a scenario, I find that foundational beliefs or axioms are meaningless. These axioms are required for you to understand the reality you live in, but in this reality, even they are constructs of the other intelligence and thus can be altered by that it willy-nilly. Continuously questioning your beliefs in your axioms and senses would be the only way to live in that reality.

You made it much easier for me to digest. The bit with on validation was absolutely groundbreaking and helped me understand, even more so when in conjunction with the explanation that truth is null in any form without foundational belief.

However, solipsism doesn't need two minds to operate in its assumptions. It is very much like in the matrix, but in this case the solipsist generally argues that reality is self-generated and needs no creator other than themselves. I agree with the crux of this analysis, however. The only way for the solipsist to live in that reality is to constantly question foundational principals, because a self-generated reality is subject to change just like a reality generated by another in your example.
My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true.
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell
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Messages In This Thread
Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 25, 2012 at 3:18 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 26, 2012 at 1:39 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - July 26, 2012 at 6:02 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 26, 2012 at 6:25 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - July 26, 2012 at 6:32 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 26, 2012 at 6:37 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - July 26, 2012 at 9:11 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 26, 2012 at 11:16 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - July 26, 2012 at 12:33 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - July 26, 2012 at 3:36 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 26, 2012 at 9:34 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - July 27, 2012 at 5:13 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 27, 2012 at 10:21 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - July 26, 2012 at 6:31 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Perhaps - July 26, 2012 at 11:27 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 26, 2012 at 11:37 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 27, 2012 at 10:32 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Perhaps - July 27, 2012 at 1:35 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - July 27, 2012 at 1:36 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - July 27, 2012 at 2:09 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - July 27, 2012 at 2:59 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - July 27, 2012 at 2:48 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - July 27, 2012 at 3:36 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - July 27, 2012 at 11:35 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Perhaps - July 28, 2012 at 12:50 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - July 28, 2012 at 9:37 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - July 29, 2012 at 11:46 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - July 28, 2012 at 7:17 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - July 28, 2012 at 11:36 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - July 29, 2012 at 3:22 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Perhaps - July 29, 2012 at 3:23 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - July 29, 2012 at 11:10 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - July 29, 2012 at 4:11 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Perhaps - July 29, 2012 at 5:47 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - August 5, 2012 at 11:17 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by mralstoner - August 5, 2012 at 8:58 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 5, 2012 at 3:18 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - August 5, 2012 at 4:59 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 5, 2012 at 8:03 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - August 5, 2012 at 8:14 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by mralstoner - August 5, 2012 at 8:52 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - August 5, 2012 at 9:09 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 6, 2012 at 3:54 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by mralstoner - August 6, 2012 at 5:49 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 6, 2012 at 9:17 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - August 6, 2012 at 11:44 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 6, 2012 at 1:06 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Whateverist - August 6, 2012 at 12:23 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - August 6, 2012 at 5:57 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by mralstoner - August 6, 2012 at 6:59 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - August 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 6, 2012 at 3:14 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Skepsis - August 6, 2012 at 4:41 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 6, 2012 at 5:35 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by jonb - August 6, 2012 at 8:32 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 7, 2012 at 4:50 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 7, 2012 at 5:16 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 8, 2012 at 5:53 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - August 12, 2012 at 2:17 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 12, 2012 at 9:58 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - August 12, 2012 at 7:52 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 12, 2012 at 9:47 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - August 13, 2012 at 2:24 am
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by genkaus - August 13, 2012 at 1:47 pm
RE: Justification for Foundational Belief - by Angrboda - August 13, 2012 at 5:19 pm

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