The Stage is Yours.

[Rayaan]

No I can't accept that answer Rayaan. Allah directly deceiving his believers, for whatever reason, even if it might be for the greater good, is still Allah lying. If he's truth.. then how can he lie? To me that's a fundamental I can't get past.

Deception does not necessarily involve lying. It tends to be more indirect than lying because lying is done in the form of speech or words, but Allah doesn't deceive anyone that way (i.e through words or speech). And, again, my explanation was that deception by itself is a bad thing, but when a deception is created in order to thwart or stifle the evil plans of others (which is what Allah did), then it is not a bad thing. Your opinion, however, is that deceiving is a bad thing for whatever reason. You neglect the reasons and the specific circumstances in which Allah deceived certain people. But, I have explained my answer to that several times in this thread so far and I'm afraid that we will be just repeating ourselves if we keep discussing this topic. So, I may leave this one alone for now because this is probably one of those things that you and I simply have a difference of opinion on.

If God committed the crimes deserving punishment, then he couldn't die as an innocent sacrifice, paying for the wrongdoings of others. Just like innocent animals are slaughtered as sacrifices.. it isn't them doing any wrong, but the person that had done wrong wanting to pay back their debt and purchase back their innocence so that they could placate God, with a clean slate.

But my question was not whether or not God's punishment was an innocent sacrifice, but rather: How is it reasonable to you that God/Jesus would sacrifice himself for the sins of other people? And secondly, how do you think that the belief in such a particular model of God is the logically correct belief?

You also said that the Christian God is only a positive force, but I think that the idea of crucifixion of Jesus contradicts his positive nature because the act of killing himself on a cross and coming back to life appears to be an act of self-destruction, in my opinion, even though it may be an innocent sacrifice. Is "self-destructive" one of the attributes of the Christian God?

So 1. We accept that humans are succeptable for failure,

Surely, I accept that also.

and 2. we have a very long tradition of sacrifice payment to rectify that.

That is because modern day Christianity is built upon the cult of guilt. I think that some sects in Christianity have taken this to the extreme, in that, by imitating what they believe to be the suffering of Christ for mankind on the cross, through rigorous self-mutilation, they can obtain a degree of gnosis as well as redemption.

The important thing is that God does not and should not have the need to make Himself suffer and die so that someone else can be forgiven. That’s not how forgiveness works.

Jesus removed the need for sacrifice, which is the evolutionary step for religion.

An "evolutionary step" only by your standards.

Also, is that your most 'specific' explanation of your such bold assertion that Christianity is the only logical conclusion and that all the others fail?

I've re-quoted below some of your earlier posts in this thread just to point out the vagueness of your other replies.
*rewinds the tape*

I didn't provide details, no. It is my assertion that all conclusions lead back to god. They don't lead back to no god. I'm not condemning any other world view there, just laying down the criteria. If you believe that your own view works out, and I hope you do, I haven't found that.

"All conclusions lead back to God" ... or do you mean the Christian God who killed himself on a cross as a sacrifice just to forgive the sins of others?

If the latter, then what is one of those 'conclusions' that leads back to that God?

It's not vague. It's just not dealing with the minutae. The detail is just that, very detailed. For anything to make sense metaphysically, it is my contention that the christian god is the only satisfactory answer. I work that out continually. Why should I act positively? Because it makes sense in the wider scheme of things that positivity is life. Any question you pick makes sense including God. Minus God it fails to make sense.

- For anything to make sense metaphysically = Christian God
- It makes sense in the wider scheme of things that positivity is life.
- Minus God everything fails to make sense.

^ Still vague, because there is no information about the Christian God specifically (the one who is fully man and fully God at the same time)

And you should also be able to explain to me why you think that the Christian model of God is only model that answers everything perfectly which you still haven't done yet.

See my answer above. Also, this is way to big a question, and one I'm not qualified to answer. I could try and put it all together for you, but it would fail scrutiny because I am no expert. See any studies on the summa theologica by Thomas of Aquinas. I'm sure someone like Ryft could be far more exacting for you if you require sources.

And here, you incompetently told me that this is "way too big a question" and that you're "not qualified to answer," and then, you told me to look at what someone else said.

= "I cannot answer that."