A pantheistic argument.

[Brian37]

Hehehe, can't believe this slipped by me Doubt, but did you just refer to the universe (being interchangeable with god, via your statements) as "him"? I think you're smuggling some stuff in with the concept of god that you don't want to talk about when you claim that it's "just the universe".....

I really hate it when they think they are doing anything differently. Make a naked assurtion and back that ambiguity up with even more ambiguity.

Really, what is the problem with simply saying "The universe is a really really gigantic thing". I think subconciously this mindset simply thinks by accepting reality they'll lose their sense of awe. I havent lost it. I think the universe is awsome, both in our luck in lot being here, and its constrotive and destructive aspects. But I do not assing anything mysterious or autruistic to it. It is both a horrible and fantastic place, mostly hostile to life, but still awesome.

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I would say that what came before the big bang or what will happen after the heat death of the universe is simply unknown at this point, but unknown does not mean unatural and most certainly scientists say that a cognition is not required for either to explain what we have now. Just like there was a time we didn't know what caused hurricanes but now we do.