The Deceptive Mechanisms

[FallentoReason]

I wasn't aware that the Gospels were supported by outside sources. Can you point to a single historian who documents a miracle worker causing an uproar to every town he went, who also had hundreds following him at times?

First off, "support" does not have to be "documenting a miracle worker causing an uproar to every town he went." But I'll provide some that fit the description anyway.

Tacitus:

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html

Lucian of Samosata:

the man who was crucified in Palestine because He introduced this new cult into the world... These deluded creatures, you see, have persuaded themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, which explains the contempt of death and willing self-sacrifice so common among them. It was impressed on them too by their lawgiver that from the moment they are converted, deny the gods of Greece, worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws, they are all brothers. They take his instructions completely on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods and hold them in common ownership. So any adroit, unscrupulous fellow, who knows the world, has only to get among these simple souls and his fortune is quickly made; he plays with them.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/lucian.html

Justin Martyr:

That He performed these miracles you may easily satisfy yourself from the 'Acts' of Pontius Pilate.

http://life.liegeman.org/historymaker/extern4.html

Babylonian Talmud:

It is taught: On Passover Eve they hanged Yeshu ... because he has practised magic and led Israel astray.

http://www.starcourse.org/sources.html

Josephus:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

http://bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm

Each of the above examples illustrate some sort of uproar or great reaction to… something. Tacitus and Lucian in particular hint at a resurrection or at least a very well-faked resurrection. Why else would the Christian populace explode and believe themselves immortal?

Hmm... I feel a little disappointed. I played along with your 3 or 4 part series of questions in the hope that you would lead me somewhere else. Nope, you've brought up the same old tired sentences from the same historians that have been refuted over and over again.

Tacitus: writing in the late first century or early second (I can't remember which and honestly I can't be bothered doing your research) merely voices what the Christians believed at the time. He wasn't a contemporary of Jesus therefore his guess is as good as anyone's.

Lucian: was born in 120 A.D. and therefore is an even worse source for Jesus. Again, it sounds like he's telling me what Christians at the time believed. Nothing new to see.

Justin Martyr: um... he's a Christian apologist, and the worst one in the history of Christianity at that. If you really take in what he says, then please accept already that Christianity copied Mithraism with certain things.

Babylonian Talmud: the Mishnah was composed around 200 A.D. and the Gemara in 500 A.D... yeah, no.

Josephus: you can do this one at home on your own. Hint: observant Jew, dissonance.

Unfortunately, your "outside sources" place the Gospel firmly at 70 A.D. or later.

There are sources that say the Gospels were written after 70 A.D.? Can you cite them please?
In any case, we have reason to believe Mark and Luke were written before 70 A.D. Luke and others likely would have mentioned the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of the temple--in 70 A.D (http://life.liegeman.org/historymaker/ntdocs4.html ). Moreover, Tacitus describes Christians dying for their faith in the mid-sixties. If it was true that the Gospels were written after that point, Christians did not get their faith from a forged document--they got it from somewhere else. Lee Strobel adds:

The book of Acts ends with Paul in Rome waiting trial. We do not find out how he dies, presumably because the story was written before he died. So Acts can’t be dated later than A.D. 62. Acts is the second of a two part work, so we can now place the book of Luke before that time. Mark is believed to be before Luke by most scholars, so it’s even earlier. If you assume a year for each, you end up with Mark being written by A.D. 60 or possibly earlier. Assuming Jesus died in A.D. 30 or 33 we have a maximum of 30 years gap. Probably much less.

http://www.millennialstar.org/the-case-f...scripture/[/quote]

What would any of this change exactly? And the point about Christians not getting their faith from a forged document... it is known that they had their oral traditions which translates to hearsay. The forging has nothing to do with it.

I’m waiting for an answer to my question. Suppose a gospel was discovered to have been written in A.D.33. Would that make you consider it less likely to be fictional?

If the authorship could be confidently established and it was someone trustworthy (as opposed to randoms as it happens to be currently) then there could be something worth looking into.