RE: A Small Census
March 9, 2013 at 2:06 am
(This post was last modified: March 9, 2013 at 2:22 am by jstrodel.)
You are setting up the questions to prove what you want. You are trying to make light of obvious cultural differences that exist between atheists and Christians.
Atheism is a liberal/left wing movement. The majority of people who are serious about leftist politics do not really openly identify with Marxism, although Christopher Hitchens and Stephen J Gould does. You can mock that as much as you want, but it will only trick the weak minded. Marxism is a major part of the atheist movement. On this forum you can see supporters of Chavez (who does not identify as a Marxist but is close, friends of Fidel Castro).
If you wanted to have a different question that I think would probably capture the political aspect of the atheist movement more, you could ask "How many people are to the left of Barack Obama". I bet that within the atheist movement you would find far, far more people that would answer yes to this than in the general population. It is very significant that the people that tend to disagree about the nature of morality tend to be the people that want to increase taxes the most and have the greatest degree of state power.
It is fashionable in left wing circles to distance yourself from Marx and the Soviet Union, but the question remains, "if you are to the left of Barack Obama, what is it that you want society to look like". How many people on this forum subscribe to magazines like The Nation, Mother Jones. How many people take Howard Zinn seriously (I saw a post on this on another message board). Howard Zinn is a Marxist (or something close to that), and people that read those magazines and take what they say seriously are leftists. The fact that atheists are a massive part of the left and the left is a very aggressive political movement should make any honest person think. You can close your eyes to this, but if you are a critical thinker you will see that it is true.
I understand there are plenty of atheists who are middle aged computer programmers or scientists who are not even politically leftist (maybe they are for Ron Paul) and who have never done drugs. Yes there are a lot of these people. But there are also a lot of people who are very young, who are filled with left wing propaganda, and who use drugs. A whole lot of people. If you want to see one, go to a college campus. It is absolutely filled with them. The left does use the allure of sex and drugs to advance its goals. I used to be involved in political organizing. I have seen it myself. This is a major part of the atheist movements strength, in college campus's. I understand that not everyone fits this stereotype, but it is real. You can close your eyes to it and call Christians hypocrites because they have a one sided view of things, but you can't do it with a straight face.
You attempt to caricature my accurate assessment of "the left" as "hippies who listen to psychedelic movement" is a deeply unscientific and methodological flawed approach. There is a major link between the left and atheism, whether you call this Marxism or not. Of course few people meet all these criteria perfectly.
You use the term "recruited" as if that is the way the world works. Of course people do not need to be "recruited" into atheism. It is sufficient to have the cultural associations that exist between a lifestyle that tolerates promiscuity coupled with aggressive mocking of religion. People do not need to be recruited.
Regardless of what your unscientific survey says (and says about you, if you claim to be a skeptical person about the world, I consider your skepticism to be no more serious than a rejection of religious belief), the atheist lifestyle is different from the Christian lifestyle. Consider the pornography question, regardless of how you word your atheist propaganda, they have pornography right on this forum. People do not need to be recruited to look at pornography, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. You are trying to mock religion and advance a culture war, not understand the atheist movement.
I understand that not all atheists fit into the category of left/liberal hedonists, but many do. You will not see posts on Christian forums about whether it is safe to take ecstasy and what is the correct dose and way to do it, but you see them here.
Your survey proves that you want to disprove Christianity more than you want to do real science.
I would also point out that in understand the nature of political propaganda and the cultural impact of a certain faction asserting its will, it is not necessary to focus specifically on peoples desires or will in accepting the point of view. It does not matter if the people on the receiving end believe the same views, the goal of the propaganda may not even be to get the people to believe the same thing. Do you know what a "Communist front" is? Cultural movements are not built by people being personally committed to every detail of every idea, it is more subtle, people do not need to be recruited it is more like cultural blocs that develop and form around liberties that exist inside of certain cultures (e.g. atheism, college culture) and are manipulated intentionally.
I think if you don't care that political groups use sex and drugs and atheism to manipulate people, you are not a compassionate person. It is absolutely clear that they do. It does not matter if that is not how you think you came to atheism, that may have played a major role in the people that shared atheism with you or the people before that, or it may be impossible to know. It is not like they would necessarily share it.
Atheism is linked to a youthful rebellion and rejection of Christianity that typically happens in high school or college. It is ridiculous to try and place this on all atheists, of course there are many that do not fit into this category. Many are older. But to deny this trend and close your eyes to the fact that it goes hand in hand with lifestyle choices is to acknowledge that you are not really interested in understanding the world you are only interested in advancing a culture war based on trust in your authority figures.
Atheism is a liberal/left wing movement. The majority of people who are serious about leftist politics do not really openly identify with Marxism, although Christopher Hitchens and Stephen J Gould does. You can mock that as much as you want, but it will only trick the weak minded. Marxism is a major part of the atheist movement. On this forum you can see supporters of Chavez (who does not identify as a Marxist but is close, friends of Fidel Castro).
If you wanted to have a different question that I think would probably capture the political aspect of the atheist movement more, you could ask "How many people are to the left of Barack Obama". I bet that within the atheist movement you would find far, far more people that would answer yes to this than in the general population. It is very significant that the people that tend to disagree about the nature of morality tend to be the people that want to increase taxes the most and have the greatest degree of state power.
It is fashionable in left wing circles to distance yourself from Marx and the Soviet Union, but the question remains, "if you are to the left of Barack Obama, what is it that you want society to look like". How many people on this forum subscribe to magazines like The Nation, Mother Jones. How many people take Howard Zinn seriously (I saw a post on this on another message board). Howard Zinn is a Marxist (or something close to that), and people that read those magazines and take what they say seriously are leftists. The fact that atheists are a massive part of the left and the left is a very aggressive political movement should make any honest person think. You can close your eyes to this, but if you are a critical thinker you will see that it is true.
I understand there are plenty of atheists who are middle aged computer programmers or scientists who are not even politically leftist (maybe they are for Ron Paul) and who have never done drugs. Yes there are a lot of these people. But there are also a lot of people who are very young, who are filled with left wing propaganda, and who use drugs. A whole lot of people. If you want to see one, go to a college campus. It is absolutely filled with them. The left does use the allure of sex and drugs to advance its goals. I used to be involved in political organizing. I have seen it myself. This is a major part of the atheist movements strength, in college campus's. I understand that not everyone fits this stereotype, but it is real. You can close your eyes to it and call Christians hypocrites because they have a one sided view of things, but you can't do it with a straight face.
You attempt to caricature my accurate assessment of "the left" as "hippies who listen to psychedelic movement" is a deeply unscientific and methodological flawed approach. There is a major link between the left and atheism, whether you call this Marxism or not. Of course few people meet all these criteria perfectly.
You use the term "recruited" as if that is the way the world works. Of course people do not need to be "recruited" into atheism. It is sufficient to have the cultural associations that exist between a lifestyle that tolerates promiscuity coupled with aggressive mocking of religion. People do not need to be recruited.
Regardless of what your unscientific survey says (and says about you, if you claim to be a skeptical person about the world, I consider your skepticism to be no more serious than a rejection of religious belief), the atheist lifestyle is different from the Christian lifestyle. Consider the pornography question, regardless of how you word your atheist propaganda, they have pornography right on this forum. People do not need to be recruited to look at pornography, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. You are trying to mock religion and advance a culture war, not understand the atheist movement.
I understand that not all atheists fit into the category of left/liberal hedonists, but many do. You will not see posts on Christian forums about whether it is safe to take ecstasy and what is the correct dose and way to do it, but you see them here.
Your survey proves that you want to disprove Christianity more than you want to do real science.
I would also point out that in understand the nature of political propaganda and the cultural impact of a certain faction asserting its will, it is not necessary to focus specifically on peoples desires or will in accepting the point of view. It does not matter if the people on the receiving end believe the same views, the goal of the propaganda may not even be to get the people to believe the same thing. Do you know what a "Communist front" is? Cultural movements are not built by people being personally committed to every detail of every idea, it is more subtle, people do not need to be recruited it is more like cultural blocs that develop and form around liberties that exist inside of certain cultures (e.g. atheism, college culture) and are manipulated intentionally.
I think if you don't care that political groups use sex and drugs and atheism to manipulate people, you are not a compassionate person. It is absolutely clear that they do. It does not matter if that is not how you think you came to atheism, that may have played a major role in the people that shared atheism with you or the people before that, or it may be impossible to know. It is not like they would necessarily share it.
Atheism is linked to a youthful rebellion and rejection of Christianity that typically happens in high school or college. It is ridiculous to try and place this on all atheists, of course there are many that do not fit into this category. Many are older. But to deny this trend and close your eyes to the fact that it goes hand in hand with lifestyle choices is to acknowledge that you are not really interested in understanding the world you are only interested in advancing a culture war based on trust in your authority figures.
