(March 13, 2013 at 1:41 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:(March 12, 2013 at 9:05 pm)ManMachine Wrote: What are the types of proofs? - For me a proof is the level of reason an individual can apply to an idea so that it satisfies their need to question it further.this is persuasion not proving
How to prove a statements? - Achieve the level of reason required by an individual.
Quote:How to disprove a statements? - Get an individual to question the issue further.A proof is a chain of logical consequences from premises to a conclusion
It can be refuted by proving that a premises is false
or statement X doesn't lead to statement X+1
A statement can be disproved by a contradiction inside it
Quote:What is impossible? Travelling faster than the speed of bad news.Logical Paradoxes are impossible (even for God)
Quote:What are the basic premises that all agree on?None, that is why it is very difficult to prove God
but wait, each person accept what we defines (Axioms)
for example exist and not exist are mutually exclusive because we defined it like that
It is impossible for something to be existing and not existing at the same time
We can all agree on that
Don't misunderstand me, I have a moderate fondness for formal logic, but as Wittgenstein said, logic is only a framework upon which we hang facts about our world.
It's difficult to see how logic is useful when debating with someone who claims their personal proof of their god is based on their 'feeling' a presence. In the realms of the metaphysical, logic is next to useless.
But we cannot deny a feeling nor can we deny that the individual who felt so moved accepts this as 'proof' of god's existance. This may not be acceptable proof for many atheists but it is still enough for the majority of the population of the planet to base a belief on.
But what about atheists? The level of 'proof' required is different for different people. Most of the atheists I know are happy to accept empirical evidence as proof, I disagree. Empirical evidence is historical, it can only tell us what has been observed in the past, we can extrapolate on this and predict it will remain the same in the future but there is no actual 'evidence' of this, there is, in my opinion, no proof. It is only the weight of current opinion that holds this 'proof' up. People are persuaded by popular opinion to accept something as a proof.
So, there are two examples of where persuasion is proof, to be more accurate, proof enough for those who need it.
Proof is not a concrete concept. It's fairly pointless trying to make it one.
My comment about bad news is a reference to Douglas Adams. It's a little flippant, ignore it.
The problem with axioms is they are fundamentally assumptive. There is nothing wrong with this but neither should we forget it. Axiomatic reasoning can lead us badly astray if we loose sight of the original assumptions (see my point above).
As an interesting aside, Quantum Physics is very comfortable with the idea that sub atomic particles can exist and not exist at the same time. I have no problem with the concept.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
