RE: God's God
April 8, 2013 at 12:22 am
(This post was last modified: April 8, 2013 at 12:31 am by median.)
(April 7, 2013 at 1:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Not really. To me it seems if God eternally did exist, he would be constantly causing himself to exist.
A quark can't really be said to be causing itself to exist, from my perspective.
The reason is that it doesn't have immense power or super natural power to do that.
Again, this is attempting special pleading b/c we can apply "immense power" to anything we want (including the global universe). Second, lots of things in the universe have immense power (such as black holes). So what. You're just making up things (speculation) about the deity you already assumed exists (as a maneuver out of the fallacy) but we can do that with the global universe too. That is the point dude. Third, you haven't demonstrated that your alleged deity has "immense power" or "supernatural power". As I anticipated in the OP, you've ASSERTED it. But saying it is so, doesn't make it so.
(April 7, 2013 at 1:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I know Islamically, it is taught that God is Independant while everything else is dependant on him.
You don't have to agree with it, but it's not a case of special pleading.
There is a notable difference. I know I can't be constantly causing myself to exist. I know I can't be causing the universe to exist. Does that mean I know God can't be causing himself and the universe to exist? That is silly.
No, what's silly is your arbitrary assertion that your deity 'Allah' doesn't need an explanation of it's existence when in fact you demand an explanation of the existence of humans, the universe, the global universe etc. That IS in fact special pleading. You cannot define your deity into existence (claiming "it's eternal") w/out the other side's ability to do the same. Turn about is fair play. Does existence need an explanation for it's existence? Then your God does too.
Btw, you have no examples of anything "causing itself" to exist. That is incoherent.
(April 7, 2013 at 1:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It is said...
Exactly, it's the "It is said" part that is in question. You've bought into an "It is said" instead of practicing the same kind of skepticism you do in daily life (with a salesman at the door, etc).
(April 7, 2013 at 1:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: God's existence is ultimate to the extent it cannot lack any life. If that is true, all life + life of God is not more than "life of God". This would be true, even if God create infinite universes with infinite souls. If this is true, then real existence would be derived from God's existence and be given to life by emitting him.
Therefore, if he exists, he necessarily encompasses all life out there, while all life must be derived from it's existence. If this is true, then everything must be created by him, and there cannot logically be two gods or three gods or five gods, in the sense that they are all ultimate or eternal.
This shows it would not be a case of special pleading to say God would not require a creator or that he can't know that.
These statements are meaningless. I have no idea WTF you're talking about. "Cannot lack any life"? This is more arbitrary defining of your deity into existence - which is absurd. WOW CREDULITY.
(April 7, 2013 at 7:29 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The first premise is "Everything that comes into being has a cause." Median's reply is that the physical universe qualifies as that which did not come into being, i.e. it has always been here. This shows he doesn't understand the cosmological argument.
The argument begins by saying that no efficient cause can cause itself. If something is caused, then it depends on something other than itself to begin. Anything that begins must have a cause. If the physical universe did not have a beginning then you have an infinite regress of causes and effects, one that is incapable of causing itself, (actual infinities do not exist). Therefore the whole of the causal chain depends on something independent of causal chain to begin. That something is an uncaused cause that is not part of the physical universe as we know it.
NOPE. You're quite mistaken. I understand the argument very well - as I used to use it all the time as an ex-apologist (Scaling the Secular City - J.P. Moreland, etc). The argument breaks down on multiple fonts (as Peter Millican points out in his debate with Bill Craig (see YouTube). But for the purpose of this OP, are you attempting to claim that your deity Yahweh did not have a beginning (i.e. - arbitrarily giving your deity characteristics)? If that can be said, then so can be said about the global universe (the totality of existence). It needs to cause. But if you think it does, then we can just as easily ask for the explanation of the existence of your said deity (amidst the other deity 'Allah' here).
Last, this idea that "actually infinities" do not exist is absurd. Is your deity not an ACTUAL being?? Is it "actually" infinite?? Bahahah! This is absurd.
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