If Not Hell then what?

[Drich]

1. The sort of non-answer which results from a lack of thinking.

I agree.
As I am not making the God of the bible up as I go along, I am not
privy to 'think up' answers to satasify every question you may want to
ask. I am "Speaking where the bible Speaks." In doing I have no biblical based answer to give you here as there is no
reason given as to why the wages of sin are death.

That said I did speculate that there are far reaching consenquences of
sin that maybe we can not understand or see beyond what we already
know.

2. That just proves that he desires and enjoys death. He didn't
make death the payment for sin because he had no other choice;

If I were God I would make Death the payment for sin simply
because I would not want unrepentant people intermingling with those
who did seek attonement.

how could an omnipotent being be subject to necessity?

Why do you assume that he was? Are you still working of your
failed understanding that God is omni benevolent to all of Humanity?
Again God's love is boundless for those who Love Him with all of their
being and have A/S/K for understanding and forgiveness. God chose
Death for those who do not seek eternal life.

The only explanation left would be that he wants people to
suffer death, and the only explanation why is because the death of men
gives him pleasure.

The only consequences of sin which should matter, to a
believer, is what consequences they have on God.

Sin corrupted 1/3 of the population of Heaven's angels, and as a result
forever changed the dynamic of every sentiant being's interactivity
with God forever. I would say that there is an effect on God, just
not in the way you intend to frame it.

Obviously, they can have none, right? He could not actually be
harmed or in any way put out by sin. Sin cannot be a threat to him in
any way.

One does not have to be under threat to experience the consenquences
of the actions of another person. Lets say you had a member of your
house hold who had a gambling problem. Not a bad one, just bad enough
to where they consumed 80 to 90% of your family's disposable income.
Meaning all of your bills get paid, but there is nothing left over at
the end of the month. (Not under any sort of threat) Even so, How long
do you think you could live under a situation where one member of the
house hold was consuming all of the combined resources that was
intended for the whole family? This person's sin against the family
causes everyone to suffer. Now imagine if resolving this issue would
be as simple as not going to poker night or bingo night or whatever,
but the effect person would not even though everyone suffered for it?
What if you borrowed alot of money (sacrificed) toget this person help
and they refused? What if their actions cost your son his life? yet
they refused to even be appologetic let alone make an attempt to
address their sins?

Even after all of this, you experience no threat to yourself, but your
partner will not even consider seeking any help you offered. Do you
still say that one can not be affected by the non threating sins of
another?

What is it, then? It offends his pride.

Why do we put people in Jail? Is it because of our pride? No, We put
people in jail because they have demonstrated that they can not live
in a soceity bound by rules. So they are locked away from those who
can be productive members of soceity to prevent them from corrupting
or preying on everyone else.

God looks at sin the way an abusive husband looks at his wife
when she tries to think or do for herself. Like the abusive husband,
God reacts to this with anger and revenge. I often wonder why
Christians have such miserably poor standards of goodness and
perfection, that they would worship a being like this.

Again How does God differ here than what we have done in our prision
systems? After all you personally benefit from prisions now. What do
you say we do with convicted prisioners? Forgive them and let all of
them Go?

But, I do have that outside perspective.

No you don't
you are bound to sin like everyone else. Therefore your perspective is
like that of everyone else. What you think you have has been
identified by Christ 2000 years ago as Self Righteousness.

And now I see what it really means. After all, sin is nothing
but saying no to God. Sin is not inherently or objectively bad. There
are many evils which are not sins, and many harmless acts which are.
So, what am I? A good man? Maybe. Not completely. I have my faults and
my shortcomings. My standard of goodness is alien to you, however,
because I live in the real world and care about real world things. I
care about humanity, while your religion holds mankind in utter
disdain. I want humanity to mature and achieve, you anxiously await
your prophesied end of the world and the deaths of everybody.

Wow, I pointed to your 'feelings' as self righteousness, before I read
all of this.. Now my assessment has been confirmed.

The one who lacks perspective is yourself, deluded by the idea
that not only is there an objective set of right and wrong actions,
but that your god is the source of that objectivity. This is, no
doubt, why you have previously made it clear that atrocities committed
by God's command are good actions.

How are God's actions
differ from your own? In your self righteous manifesto you take on the
authority and mantle of God for yourself descerning what is right and
what is wrong, juding all of creation by your own standard.. Yet when
God does this very thing it some how becomes immoral in your eyes...
Can you explain why God does not have the authority to be God, but
somehow you do.

Do Christians see themselves as evil people? No.

Is this what you seriously think? If Christians do not see themselves
as evil then why has any of us sought attonement/Forgiveness of our
sins? Paul in Roman 7 even points out his inablity to seperate himself
from from his evil desires. If Paul can not help but to be evil then
what hope do any of us have?

They love their God and see what that they do in God's name as
something like a cleansing that needed to happen in order for them to
find favor with their God. Just like every major religion had done up
to that point in history.

This is where your understanding of
History, Religion and Christianity has failed you.

Why can't you ever answer that question? Does God enjoy seeing
blood spill?

Yes, Blood is required to pay for sins

So, you admit, then, that God is not loving and merciful?

If God was loving and merciful to everyone why or rather how could He
send anyone to Hell? That must mean God is Loving and merciful to
those in whom He consideres to be His Children, and to Hell with
everyone else. (literally)

Why is violent extortion considered a righteous act by
Christianity?

Begging the question.
We are not being extorted. We are all on a train speeding to Hell. We
were all born on this train. What God has done is to provide a way off
of this train for anyone willing to walk through the exit He has
provided. He makes no one leave the train those who want to stay are
welcome to stay, but for those who do not want to ride the train to
it's final destination He has provided a way off the train.

Infact I can demonstrate everything God says in the bible to be
true. (As we have previously ) The only problem is if I take all of
the steps needed to show you want you want to see it would be too late
for you to do anything about it. (You would be dead)

All that prevarication says to me is that you are a liar making
false claims. Put up or shut up.

The only way I have to
proove any of this to you is to kill you, there by sending you to the
afterlife to see it all for yourself. But again as I said if I do that
it will be too late for you to do anything about it. If you are still
wanting me to put up or shut up All I need is an address and a reason.

That is why I suggest that you A/S/K as Luke 11 outlines. For
if God shows you what is on the other side you might get a ride back
so you can put into practice what you have learned.

I already told you, I A/S/Ked and I did find the truth, which
is to say, I found nothing.

Not according to Luke 11 you did not. For the example Christ
leaves us in Luke 11 has the A/S/K'er repeating that process till he
gets what he is looking for.

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Well, that is a conundrum, considering that your god ordered the Israelite army to do the EXACT same thing over and over again.

No he didn't. Read what I wrote again. "What if God did not want to spend ETERNITY with..." 'Those people.'

When your god ordered the babies cut from the bellies of the women of Amelek and Samaria did both mother and child get a pass into heaven or is that only reserved for the people who do the cutting?

The cutters

Your answer is given in the question: Your god has literally SURROUNDED himself with murderers and rapists since his debut with the Hebrew. If anything, opening the doors of Heaven to all the atheists would provide a lot more non-killing, non-bigoted, forgiving type [/code]of souls in Heaven. Sure, you'd get the occasional horrible atheist, but on average, allowing non-believers in would actually CLEAN UP the joint.

Because there is nothing wrong with the act in of itself. Rape and 'Murder' is considered sin when not authorized by God. Again as per your wonder biblical examples prove Rape and murder are only sinful acts when we take it upon ourselves to do these things without direction from God.;^)

Most atheists feel that you can't hate something you don't believe in.

'Most atheists' don't know what they believe in. 'Most atheists' are hoping the banner of non belief will buy them mercy on the day of their judgement , That is why 'most atheists' will argue christian theology rather than ignore and dismiss, similar claims attributed to posiden or thore.

Absolutely ... or rather he would have, if he had bothered to reveal himself to the ENTIRE world.

You mean to you personally don't you? Because He Did this very thing 2000 years ago, and to every believer since.

The point is Drich, you will never EVER have a leg to stand on as long as you continue to use the Bible as your sole backing argument.

What are you taking about 10% of what I do here forces you all to go back to the bible for 'proof.' The Lion's share of my work is to get you to A/S/K for yourselves so that you can Experience God one on One. That is how 90% of those in Heaven will have gotten there. The bible is a fairly new construct. The gift of the Holy Spirit is what saves people, is what gives people proof of God, is what answers your questions. I have said over and Over A/S/K for the Holy Spirit as out lined in luke 11, because for me the Holy Spirit gave me understanding and knowledge of God long before I understood the bible.

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Yes, but its not by definition. Its only what is inferred if such a thing is implied.

then your task became very simple; Show me where it is stated in the bible that God is who you have represented Him to be. If you say God is Omni benevolent then show me Book Chapter and verse God is Omni benevolent to everyone as you have stated.

Go is limited by logical absolutes which are apart from my understanding of anything at all. My understanding is only a way for me to recognize a claim that lacks validity. It is invalid apart from my understanding of it.

You are skipping ahead. First YOU must establish "The Claim" in which you speak, demonstrating that it is from the bible speaking of the God of the bible.

No. He is either unlimited or limited. Which is it? My definition of unlimited is not at all skewed by any opinion. Limit or No-Limit. It's not me that places this value to this entity you defend. It either is or isn't.

The bible does not define God as unlimited.. Nor does it define Him as limited.. God Calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the End. What does this mean? It means what every God wants to do He has the first and last word in doing it. (What ever it may be.)

For truly limitless power comes with the ablity to limit one's own abilities. Which makes God's actual title far more powerful than saying God has 'unlimited power.' Why? Because again with 'unlimited power' one is bound to the paradox in which one is demanded to always choose the course of action that defines limitless power. When in fact being the Alpha and the Omega simply says God has to the absolute power to do what He wants when He wants even if it means limiting Himself in a given situation.

Drich, your representation or the bible's...doesn't matter. They are still subject to certain logical contengencies. But in an attempt to not put words in your mouth, I would like to offer you the opportunity to make a specific claim about just 1 (so that we may have a manageable figure) of God's properties/attributes. Make it in a manner you believe consistent with The Bible's representation. I will not challenge the consistency. I am not concerned with it.

Are you not speaking of the God of the bible??? The only way you should not be concerned about the bible when speaking of God is when you've made up your own version of Him. Allowing you to attack the strawman/deity as you will.

I am interested in the claim. Where you get it only matters if its verifiable. If it is NOT, then it is only the claim that need be assessed according to its logical value. Not my opinion of value, its logical validity. There's a difference.

Your turning out to be a waist of time. So, you only want to discuss 'the claim' but not the actual claim, your understanding of said claim that has absolutely nothing to do with what is actually recorded in the bible. Then you want to discuss what a joke you believe God to be, but not the God of the bible your strawman version of God. One that you know how to attack and dismiss???


There is no need to go any further than this. for if you have no intrest in discussing what the bible actually says, then I have nothing more to say to you. After all what can I say if you only want to discuss a god of your own creation and a hell of your own design??? I guess your right about all of it.

Just let me know when/if you think your ready to discuss what the bible actually says

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[quote='downbeatplumb' pid='441151' dateline='1367844169']
So he can't just go poof and we disappear there is a process, probably with some forms and a factory.

Why would he 'poof' someone out of existance when there is a debt to be paid?

I don't remember signing anything.

Are you saying you remember signing everything you have ever signed?

Do you remember being born? Do you remember your conception? No?!?!? Does it mean it did happen?