Sea, you make it sound like abortion is nothing more than removing genital warts. And I find that a very ignorant position to hold.
Yet we determine these rights. Equal rights are a standard in our societies. This is not Saudi-Arabia, so don't invoke that into it. This is not a religious issue either. Stop trying to add if's and's and but's in this scenario, it is already established what I am talking about. If you cannot address this point on the scenario presented then either bow out of the discussion or reconsider your position.
You didn't, I did, from the very beginning, and I said both are. They both made a mistake and had an unwanted pregnancy as a result.
No you got your first cell from the material of your father and mother, you do not grow your limbs from either, you grow them yourself from the cell division from that first stem cell in the womb of your mother.
Babies that are out of the womb don't even have a will yet, there brain is just functioning enough to perceive and communicate pain, hunger, sleep. Are you now saying that we should be able to kill them too?
I think you miss the point here. I am not opposed to abortion (read back every posting I made and you will see that at no point I have said I was), but I am opposed to abortion without at least looking for a solution to keep a baby if there is sufficient cause to assume this child will grow up in a loving environment, either with the father or adoption. If there is no way that that is going to happen, then terminating the pregnancy is the best thing to do.
I am not opposed to abortion when the situation is such that having the child is so much of a burden on the parents that it lessens the quality of life for the child. I am not opposed to abortion if there is a medical ground for it.
I see abortion as a last resort. And I think it is only fair that the father should be included in this. And I tentatively agree that unless we can do some kind of in vitro gestation the mother has the last word. But it is in no means as cut and dry as the first posts in this topic made it out to be.
(December 3, 2009 at 4:47 pm)Saerules Wrote: 'Rights' are completely subjective... as are morals... as is pretty much everything (if not everything?).
Yet we determine these rights. Equal rights are a standard in our societies. This is not Saudi-Arabia, so don't invoke that into it. This is not a religious issue either. Stop trying to add if's and's and but's in this scenario, it is already established what I am talking about. If you cannot address this point on the scenario presented then either bow out of the discussion or reconsider your position.
(December 3, 2009 at 4:47 pm)Saerules Wrote: By 'worthy', I am referring to a man who has been in a relationship with the woman for enough time to make him more 'worthy' of having a claim to a child more than a male rapist. Did I say anywhere that either of them 'did wrong'?
You didn't, I did, from the very beginning, and I said both are. They both made a mistake and had an unwanted pregnancy as a result.
(December 3, 2009 at 4:47 pm)Saerules Wrote: I understand the gist of what you were saying with the paragraph, but I should also think that I got my limbs from my father's materials as well as my mother's
No you got your first cell from the material of your father and mother, you do not grow your limbs from either, you grow them yourself from the cell division from that first stem cell in the womb of your mother.
(December 3, 2009 at 4:47 pm)Saerules Wrote: are we aware of at what point the 'baby' goes from simply sensing... to doing something of its own 'will?' with what it senses?
Babies that are out of the womb don't even have a will yet, there brain is just functioning enough to perceive and communicate pain, hunger, sleep. Are you now saying that we should be able to kill them too?
(December 3, 2009 at 4:47 pm)Saerules Wrote: A chicken is as capable of feeling pain as I am... yet I eat chicken. What is so different about aborting a growth in my uterus that can feel pain? Pain happens... it is not a good reason to stop an abortion simply because it will hurt someone/something.
I think you miss the point here. I am not opposed to abortion (read back every posting I made and you will see that at no point I have said I was), but I am opposed to abortion without at least looking for a solution to keep a baby if there is sufficient cause to assume this child will grow up in a loving environment, either with the father or adoption. If there is no way that that is going to happen, then terminating the pregnancy is the best thing to do.
I am not opposed to abortion when the situation is such that having the child is so much of a burden on the parents that it lessens the quality of life for the child. I am not opposed to abortion if there is a medical ground for it.
I see abortion as a last resort. And I think it is only fair that the father should be included in this. And I tentatively agree that unless we can do some kind of in vitro gestation the mother has the last word. But it is in no means as cut and dry as the first posts in this topic made it out to be.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
