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Argument from evil, restated
RE: Argument from evil, restated
(May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Origen Wrote: What kind of free existence would we have if God held up his hand and stopped all natural things from happening? We would then be toys in God's diorama.

What this implies is that existence is not worth having unless the universe is such that we can die randomly and in great suffering. I want to follow this to its logical conclusion, so bear with me:

Assuming God exists:

1. Natural disasters and death are both real.
2. Natural disasters are a grave threat to us because we were expelled from the Garden of Eden thanks to Adam's sin.
3. Random natural disaster is necessary for free existence, otherwise we'd be toys in God' diorama.
4. Free existence is the optimal state of existence.
5. The freedom of free existence is the freedom to sin.
6. Without sin, there is no freedom
7. Through Christ one finds redemption and everlasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven.
8. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no sin or natural disaster.
9. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no free will or free existence.
10. In the Kingdom of Heaven, we are all toys in God's diorama.
11. This is inferior to free existence, as your post implies.
12. Therefore, living in sin and danger is preferable to living with God in Heaven and heaven should be avoided.
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Messages In This Thread
Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 2:47 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 21, 2013 at 3:05 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 3:13 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 3:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 21, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 21, 2013 at 7:23 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 21, 2013 at 7:03 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 9:42 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 22, 2013 at 12:44 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 21, 2013 at 11:11 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 21, 2013 at 3:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 12:40 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 21, 2013 at 3:16 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 21, 2013 at 4:12 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 21, 2013 at 4:36 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 3:59 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 5:48 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 22, 2013 at 8:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 21, 2013 at 6:17 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 21, 2013 at 6:37 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 7:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 21, 2013 at 10:37 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 21, 2013 at 11:17 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 22, 2013 at 8:32 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - May 21, 2013 at 9:32 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 11:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 1:58 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 22, 2013 at 2:17 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 2:44 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 2:18 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 22, 2013 at 2:21 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 22, 2013 at 7:56 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 2:54 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 11:20 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 23, 2013 at 8:06 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 24, 2013 at 1:35 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 24, 2013 at 5:57 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 6:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 3:55 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 4:42 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 25, 2013 at 8:22 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2013 at 8:10 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2013 at 8:41 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 3:04 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 4:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 22, 2013 at 7:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 22, 2013 at 7:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 22, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 22, 2013 at 7:00 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 22, 2013 at 9:15 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 12:34 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 23, 2013 at 2:26 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 3:59 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 23, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 4:38 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - May 23, 2013 at 4:09 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 5:11 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 12:28 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 8:53 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 23, 2013 at 8:58 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 10:13 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 23, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 1:04 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 23, 2013 at 1:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - May 22, 2013 at 7:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 2:10 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 23, 2013 at 9:25 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 12:02 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 2:27 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 3:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 3:45 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 3:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 3:01 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 3:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 4:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 5:46 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - May 23, 2013 at 5:56 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 23, 2013 at 9:00 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 5:50 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 5:56 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 23, 2013 at 7:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 23, 2013 at 11:28 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 24, 2013 at 12:12 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 12:25 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 12:20 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 24, 2013 at 12:27 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 24, 2013 at 1:03 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 1:28 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 24, 2013 at 2:13 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 24, 2013 at 3:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 9:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 9:43 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 24, 2013 at 11:43 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 24, 2013 at 2:47 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 11:16 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 11:17 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 1:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 24, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 3:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 24, 2013 at 2:28 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 2:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 2:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 3:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 24, 2013 at 5:05 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 6:01 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 6:15 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 24, 2013 at 6:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 24, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 3:36 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 3:41 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 25, 2013 at 3:44 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 5:03 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 5:54 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 25, 2013 at 6:12 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 6:31 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 24, 2013 at 6:34 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 3:25 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 3:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 11:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 11:32 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 25, 2013 at 10:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Cato - May 24, 2013 at 11:40 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 25, 2013 at 2:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 25, 2013 at 7:56 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 25, 2013 at 9:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 26, 2013 at 6:29 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 26, 2013 at 7:49 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 26, 2013 at 8:52 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 26, 2013 at 10:32 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 26, 2013 at 11:49 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 27, 2013 at 4:11 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 26, 2013 at 9:11 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 27, 2013 at 1:46 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 27, 2013 at 4:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 27, 2013 at 5:51 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 26, 2013 at 6:36 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 27, 2013 at 12:35 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - May 30, 2013 at 9:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 31, 2013 at 12:58 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - May 31, 2013 at 2:24 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 31, 2013 at 3:28 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - May 31, 2013 at 2:34 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 1, 2013 at 11:44 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 31, 2013 at 2:39 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - May 31, 2013 at 7:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 31, 2013 at 2:06 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - June 1, 2013 at 10:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by whatever76 - May 31, 2013 at 4:18 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 31, 2013 at 10:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by ronedee - June 1, 2013 at 12:57 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 1, 2013 at 5:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - June 1, 2013 at 6:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by ronedee - June 4, 2013 at 1:56 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 1, 2013 at 11:47 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 2, 2013 at 5:05 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 3, 2013 at 2:22 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 3, 2013 at 7:09 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 3, 2013 at 11:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 3, 2013 at 2:38 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 3, 2013 at 11:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 4, 2013 at 1:54 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - June 4, 2013 at 2:01 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by ronedee - June 4, 2013 at 2:25 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 4, 2013 at 2:33 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 3, 2013 at 11:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 4, 2013 at 2:17 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 4, 2013 at 5:57 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - June 4, 2013 at 11:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - June 4, 2013 at 6:59 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 4, 2013 at 12:40 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 4, 2013 at 7:45 pm

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