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Argument from evil, restated
RE: Argument from evil, restated
(May 26, 2013 at 6:29 pm)Ryantology Wrote:
(May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Origen Wrote: What kind of free existence would we have if God held up his hand and stopped all natural things from happening? We would then be toys in God's diorama.

What this implies is that existence is not worth having unless the universe is such that we can die randomly and in great suffering. I want to follow this to its logical conclusion, so bear with me:

Assuming God exists:

1. Natural disasters and death are both real.
2. Natural disasters are a grave threat to us because we were expelled from the Garden of Eden thanks to Adam's sin.
3. Random natural disaster is necessary for free existence, otherwise we'd be toys in God' diorama.
4. Free existence is the optimal state of existence.
5. The freedom of free existence is the freedom to sin.
6. Without sin, there is no freedom
7. Through Christ one finds redemption and everlasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven.
8. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no sin or natural disaster.
9. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no free will or free existence.
10. In the Kingdom of Heaven, we are all toys in God's diorama.
11. This is inferior to free existence, as your post implies.
12. Therefore, living in sin and danger is preferable to living with God in Heaven and heaven should be avoided.

In death our path is set toward god, or away from god. We enter a place without time, and a reality which places us beyond the pain and suffering of this world. We are not toys in the kingdom of god because those who go toward god freely choose the good, just as those who walk away from god will freely choose evil. You begin your path in this life, you continue it in the next. Eventually Christians hope in the resurrection, and the fulfilment of the earth's destiny where there will no longer be pain and suffering. You will then have your perfect world. Be aware that not all deist believe this, but they all live in the knowledge that the human spirit continues beyond death. You're argument is so simplistic and sententious, if you're going to be a good atheist at least read Nietzsche, he posits some interesting arguments against the belief in god.

(May 26, 2013 at 6:36 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:
(May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Origen Wrote: But those of us who believe in God, know that he works in the eternal and is able to turn sorrow into joy in ways we know not of.

So we don't know what god does or how it does it, but we do know that it works in the way you say it does.

Would that be a fair assessment of your outlook on this whole thing?

I, as a Christian, know this because I believe in the teachings of Christ. I believe Christ was the son of God because of the resurrection. I believe in the resurrection because of the witnessing unto death of the apostles. They all died proclaiming Christ's resurrection, there was nothing to gain by doing this but a hard life and early death, this witness is good enough for me. Other deists believe in the immortality of the soul for other reasons. We each get to God by different paths, but we all know one thing by his or her (since god is a unique being) very nature god is beyond our full understanding, but our experience of life has led us to an encounter with a divinity beyond the limit of space and time. I'd be very special indeed if I knew how god interacts with those who die in tragedy, but I do know he does. I've already said you're welcome to your despair and nihilism, why do you feel so threatened by belief in a god you believe does not exist. I'm not trying to convert you, I just want you to be aware that religion is not as easily dismissed as saying if god existed nothing bad would ever happen. That is the argument of a child, I won't believe 'cause life is shit. Read Sartre, he might help you.
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Messages In This Thread
Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 2:47 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 21, 2013 at 3:05 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 3:13 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 3:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 21, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 21, 2013 at 7:23 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 21, 2013 at 7:03 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 9:42 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 22, 2013 at 12:44 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 21, 2013 at 11:11 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 21, 2013 at 3:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 12:40 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 21, 2013 at 3:16 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 21, 2013 at 4:12 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 21, 2013 at 4:36 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 3:59 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 5:48 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 22, 2013 at 8:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 21, 2013 at 6:17 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 21, 2013 at 6:37 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 21, 2013 at 7:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 21, 2013 at 10:37 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 21, 2013 at 11:17 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 22, 2013 at 8:32 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - May 21, 2013 at 9:32 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 21, 2013 at 11:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 1:58 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 22, 2013 at 2:17 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 2:44 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 2:18 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Minimalist - May 22, 2013 at 2:21 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 22, 2013 at 7:56 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 2:54 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 11:20 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 23, 2013 at 8:06 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 24, 2013 at 1:35 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 24, 2013 at 5:57 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 6:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 3:55 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 4:42 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 25, 2013 at 8:22 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2013 at 8:10 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2013 at 8:41 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 3:04 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 22, 2013 at 4:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 22, 2013 at 7:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 22, 2013 at 7:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 22, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 22, 2013 at 7:00 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 22, 2013 at 9:15 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 12:34 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 23, 2013 at 2:26 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 3:59 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 23, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 4:38 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - May 23, 2013 at 4:09 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 5:11 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 12:28 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 8:53 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 23, 2013 at 8:58 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 10:13 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 23, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 1:04 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 23, 2013 at 1:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - May 22, 2013 at 7:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 2:10 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 23, 2013 at 9:25 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 12:02 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 2:27 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 3:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 23, 2013 at 3:45 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 23, 2013 at 3:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 3:01 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 3:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 4:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 23, 2013 at 5:46 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - May 23, 2013 at 5:56 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 23, 2013 at 9:00 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2013 at 5:50 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Raven - May 23, 2013 at 5:56 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 23, 2013 at 7:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 23, 2013 at 11:28 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 24, 2013 at 12:12 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 12:25 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 12:20 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 24, 2013 at 12:27 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 24, 2013 at 1:03 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 1:28 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 24, 2013 at 2:13 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 24, 2013 at 3:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 9:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 9:43 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 24, 2013 at 11:43 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 24, 2013 at 2:47 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 11:16 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 11:17 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 24, 2013 at 1:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 24, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 3:07 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 24, 2013 at 2:28 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 2:30 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 2:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 3:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 24, 2013 at 5:05 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 6:01 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 6:15 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Praetorian - May 24, 2013 at 6:08 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Drich - May 24, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 3:36 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 3:41 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 25, 2013 at 3:44 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 5:03 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 5:54 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 25, 2013 at 6:12 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 24, 2013 at 6:31 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 24, 2013 at 6:34 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 25, 2013 at 3:25 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 25, 2013 at 3:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 24, 2013 at 11:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 24, 2013 at 11:32 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Neo-Scholastic - May 25, 2013 at 10:30 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Cato - May 24, 2013 at 11:40 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - May 25, 2013 at 2:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 25, 2013 at 7:56 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by FallentoReason - May 25, 2013 at 9:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 26, 2013 at 6:29 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 26, 2013 at 7:49 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 26, 2013 at 8:52 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Origen - May 26, 2013 at 10:32 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Esquilax - May 26, 2013 at 11:49 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 27, 2013 at 4:11 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 26, 2013 at 9:11 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by John V - May 27, 2013 at 1:46 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by little_monkey - May 27, 2013 at 4:21 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - May 27, 2013 at 5:51 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Fidel_Castronaut - May 26, 2013 at 6:36 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - May 27, 2013 at 12:35 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - May 30, 2013 at 9:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 31, 2013 at 12:58 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - May 31, 2013 at 2:24 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 31, 2013 at 3:28 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - May 31, 2013 at 2:34 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 1, 2013 at 11:44 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 31, 2013 at 2:39 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - May 31, 2013 at 7:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - May 31, 2013 at 2:06 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - June 1, 2013 at 10:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by whatever76 - May 31, 2013 at 4:18 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Godschild - May 31, 2013 at 10:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by ronedee - June 1, 2013 at 12:57 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 1, 2013 at 5:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by pocaracas - June 1, 2013 at 6:14 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by ronedee - June 4, 2013 at 1:56 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 1, 2013 at 11:47 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 2, 2013 at 5:05 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 3, 2013 at 2:22 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 3, 2013 at 7:09 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 3, 2013 at 11:20 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 3, 2013 at 2:38 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 3, 2013 at 11:39 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 4, 2013 at 1:54 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Ryantology - June 4, 2013 at 2:01 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by ronedee - June 4, 2013 at 2:25 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 4, 2013 at 2:33 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 3, 2013 at 11:55 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Undeceived - June 4, 2013 at 2:17 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 4, 2013 at 5:57 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Sal - June 4, 2013 at 11:34 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Brakeman - June 4, 2013 at 6:59 am
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by The Grand Nudger - June 4, 2013 at 12:40 pm
RE: Argument from evil, restated - by Zarith - June 4, 2013 at 7:45 pm

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