(December 13, 2009 at 2:29 am)Tiberius Wrote: Science doesn't "let" it happen. Science tries to prevent it. Same with the spread of disease, deaths through natural disasters, etc, etc.I would like to think I'm sensible, but that's another debate I'm sure. I don't think God is loving I think God is Love and there is a distinction I'll try to reitterate further down. I don't think God is incapable of anything. If God is omnipotent maybe he doesn't see the need to change current events becaus they will end in his favor? I'm not a believer in this, but it's a valid question. So you feel because you can not percieve God's actions that he doesn't have control over this known universe?
The point is, your God (i.e. the God of Christianity) is believed by many to be very powerful and to answer prayers, interfere with this universe in order to do miracles. Either you are sensible and accept that this simply cannot happen without causing other problems (such as the famous "why won't god heal amputees?" remark), or you believe in a God that can interfere and end up with such problems of the amputees and the baby getting eaten alive.
It seems very clear to me that if God is "loving", he is incapable of showing it through actions in our universe. A God that doesn't have power over something he created (and which is less than him) isn't a being that makes much sense to me. It is easier for me to come to terms with a God who hates his creation (or simply doesn't care / doesn't see humanity as anything special) or one that simply does not exist at all.
I'll add this unrelated tid bit. The proof I have in my Life are a series or random occurences outside of my control which lead to defining moments in my life. Being in the wrong place with a fix-a-flat at teh right time, finding a $20 and not 1 hour later taking 3 homeless to dinner. Theese are simple examples and theres a lot more and some are much more complex.
(December 13, 2009 at 2:26 am)theVOID Wrote:(December 13, 2009 at 1:49 am)tackattack Wrote: I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing about babies getting eaten by parasites. I will assume what you stated is fact, babies get eaten live by parasites. From my perspective God doesn't let anything happen. He has already done the work and is letting us "sink or swim" as the ebb of time rolls on. Trying to suppose what God sees as the outcome is imponderable and outside of my frame of reference. Why does science let babies get eaten alive by parasites?Science is not an omnipotent deity who could ensure immediately that not a single baby was ever born into suffering and poverty, eaten by bacteria and parasites from the inside, unable to eat because their is not food in the barren desert in which they are born.
You claim God is loving and compassionate, but what compassionate being could ever idly stand by and ignore it when they have the power to stop it right now and forever?
I never claimed that in fact I'm pretty sure just the opposite. Loving and compassionate are human concepts of interpretting morals that can be derived from social evolution of an weaker upwardly mobile species. Baby animals suffer all the time in the wild. It is the parent's job to teach them survival. Some are born lame and have more to overcome or fail. Why are we any different? Reason does not preclude us from survival of the fittest.
More to the point on to God's Love. A love that teaches to "turn the other cheek", love thy neighbor, not be selfish or boastful, to be always kind and always patient, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things and to forgive. That is our reasoning placed on God's perfect Love. That is different from the attainable Love I share with my wife and children and the homeless men down the street. I can aspire through the example of Jesus.
Heaven has been made reference to by some Christians as an exclusive club for God's chosen. Why shouldn't there be suffering in a world created by God and run by humans. It's like God bought this grand hotel and hired some shitty managers to run it. Sorry I must be getting tired.