Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism

[BettyG]

The evidence is outlined in books I have read: The Godless Delusion, I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, The Language of God, Mere Christianity, and The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Save me the trouble of typing all that and read the books. I dare you.

These are testimonials, written by Christians to sell the Christian myth. They are of no use to me or this discussion.

Said like a true disciple of Rene Descartes.

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There were people who saw Him alive (1 Corinthians 15:3 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.") It only takes one eye witness to convict a person of a crime.

Your one 'eyewitness' is writing well after the fact, admits to having visions, and seems to be unaware of many important events in the gospel narrative. The rest is hearsay. If this were a courtroom, the accused would walk.

It would be impossible for over five hundred people to have the same delusion.

Weren't you just trying to prove that we can't rule out the possibility of supernatural phenomena?

If one reads the things Jesus said, I don't see how anyone could say He was a lunatic. His teaching has survived two thousand years. It has changed the course of history. No one who ever lived has been as influential as Jesus. The rantings of a lunatic, however, would not have had that effect.

A Muslim would say the same things about Muhammad, and it's equally irrelevant in either case.

Your skepticism reminds me of the story about a man who thought he was dead and that dead people bleed. So the doc got him to work at a funeral home. After seeing that dead people don't bleed, the doc poked him and blood came out. The man exclaimed, "See, I told you dead people bleed!"

If you are a committed disciple of skepticism, no amount of evidence will phase you. I have an open mind, so I have explored the evidence for Jesus.

Delusions are a natural phenomena, not a supernatural phenomena.

Muhammad did not claim to be God. It is a well known fact that Muhammad had his visions during epileptic spells. I think that would have an effect on his credibility. Neither would I be a disciple of a man who had a nine year old wife, along with some others. Also, it is inconsistent to say Islam is a religion of peace, yet promise 72 virgins to those who die in battle. He is not my kind of religious leader.

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There were people who saw Him alive (1 Corinthians 15:3 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.") It only takes one eye witness to convict a person of a crime.

Your one 'eyewitness' is writing well after the fact, admits to having visions, and seems to be unaware of many important events in the gospel narrative. The rest is hearsay. If this were a courtroom, the accused would walk.

It would be impossible for over five hundred people to have the same delusion.

Weren't you just trying to prove that we can't rule out the possibility of supernatural phenomena?

If one reads the things Jesus said, I don't see how anyone could say He was a lunatic. His teaching has survived two thousand years. It has changed the course of history. No one who ever lived has been as influential as Jesus. The rantings of a lunatic, however, would not have had that effect.

A Muslim would say the same things about Muhammad, and it's equally irrelevant in either case.

The passage above was written about 55 AD. Paul was alive and there when the Resurrection occurred.

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If one reads the things Jesus said, I don't see how anyone could say He was a lunatic.

Lets see what the police would say when I go stand up somewhere on a hill in the center of Berlin and claim that I'm Gods son, that the German people are indeed God's chosen people and that I'm also the new chancellor of Germany (*).

I think they'd lock me up pretty quickly, and rightly so. Yes, I say Jesus was one among many lunatics of his time, with the difference that he found enough other lunatics to follow him to keep the entire crazyness rolling for two thousand years.

NEVERMORE.

(*) Basically today's equivalent of King of the Jews.

Have you performed miracles? Were there 500 eyewitnesses when you rose from the dead? Were there prophesies for more than a 1000 years about all the details of your life? Jesus did not come for political power either. I would not describe his teaching as crazy because I am enjoying the benefits of being his disciple.

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Is there any proof that Jesus existed at all?

Let alone that he was some sort of god on a gap year.

Read your history books. No one suggested such a ridiculous thing until the last century. There are both Roman and Jewish ancient sources that talk about Jesus.

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These are testimonials, written by Christians to sell the Christian myth. They are of no use to me or this discussion.

One thing theists fail to realize is that personal Christian testimonial is not evidence of anything except religious bias. The personal testimony serves as little purpose as faith in proving anything remotely resembling the truth.

They are logical presentations of the facts, not subjective witness stories or opinions. You can ignore the facts, but not the consequences. Truth is truth, whether you agree with it or not.