(July 4, 2013 at 6:12 pm)Koolay Wrote:(July 4, 2013 at 9:51 am)Red Celt Wrote: Free will is a delusion. A very attractive delusion, but a delusion nonetheless. Of course, we don't like the idea that everything we do was pre-determined as an inevitability at the point of the Big Bang... but if you can't accept that conclusion, you'll have to find a source for your alleged free will.
We are but billiard balls rolling across a green baize - magnified by several levels of complexity. As a materialist, I'd like to see some evidence of the ghost that alters the paths of those balls.
Right but whatever you are saying right now is to convince people to change their minds for determinism, so you are a thousand times more illogical than anyone that believes in free will by your own definition.
(July 4, 2013 at 12:02 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I think the flaw in your logic is that you're getting mixed up between a belief in everything that has happened was predetermined to happen, and a belief that certain things are predetermined to happen. For example you believing in determinism.
a belief in determinism doesn't mean that they think you are never going to believe in determinism because you don't right now at this present time, so it is illogical to ask why would someone who believes in determinism try to convince me of it if it has already been predetermined that I won't believe in it, because you still might change your mind, the mind of the person who believes in determinism isn't aware of what will or won't be determined neither is yours.
Although I just want to add I don't definitely believe in determinism, I think people who think about this type of stuff too deeply have just got too much time on their hands.
Doesn't that make you way more illogical than me then? I believe in free will, so I have an actual reason for trying to convince people to accept the position. But you think people are like rocks, so you don't actually have a reason for interacting with anyone, you failed your own test of logic.
If you know I am a rock, what are you doing talking to that rock? Surely you are wasting your own time and my time.
You don't understand determinism.
Determinism doesn't mean you are a rock, or people are rocks, or that one person cannot convince someone of something or change somebodies mind about something.
If determinism had anything to do with this then no one would believe in it, since it's obvious that
(1) People aren't rocks.
(2) People can manipulate or convince people of ideas.
Determinism means that free will is an illusion because you were already predetermined to do whatever you are going to do and whatever you have done.
If I talk to you and convince you that something is true that you previously thought was untrue this does not disprove determinism, because all determinism means is that it was already predetermined that I would talk to you convince you something is true of that you previously thought was false.
I believe determinism is perfectly viable as a concept but I don't spend too much time thinking about it, with this being the case even though I do believe determinism could be true I could still talk to someone to try and convince them of something, it just means I believe the outcome (which I wouldn't know what it was until it happened) would have already been predetermined.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
Impersonation is treason.
