Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: July 20, 2025, 3:26 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Determinism Is Self Defeating
#60
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
(July 5, 2013 at 1:02 pm)Koolay Wrote: I know what it means, but where is the reason and evidence?

Are you really sure about that?

"Only lifeforms have free will, that's why they call it life. Earth, the weather, stars, etc are deterministic."

The word "life" has nothing to do with "free will". Else, single celled organisms would qualify. Or bacteria? How about we jump up a few levels of complexity and ponder whether or not grass has free will?

I tried the billiard ball metaphor already, but let's expand upon that to see if we can get you to actually understand what determinism means.

Imagine a massive billiard ball table and (to extend the longevity of the thought experiment) let's imagine that the table is frictionless. The balls keep on bouncing and rebounding for a very long period of time.

Each time a ball hits a cushion (or another ball) it might be thought that the ball is deciding the angle it will take before that collision takes place. Each time it decides upon that angle, that angle is exactly what happens. The illusion of free will (and it is an illusion) is that those decisions are by choice. What we don't appreciate, however, is that every single thing that we do is predetermined by everything that has happened over the course of our life.

If you are driving along in a strange place and reach a T-junction, which direction will you take? Predeterminism would have it that you will always take the same direction.

Ah, says you, but if you remain lost and arrive back at the same T-junction, you could take a different direction. Well, of course you could, but the decision you make now will be different because the neurons and synapses in your brain have changed since the last time.

If you could freeze the moment in time when you approached the junction and recorded every single detail... and load those details back up again, you would always act in the same way. Because there is no Deux Ex Machina.

It feels exactly like free will... only it isn't.
[Image: ascent_descent422.jpg]
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and celt
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed

Red Celt's Blog
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 1, 2013 at 7:30 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 1, 2013 at 9:06 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Silver - July 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by MikeTheInfidel - July 9, 2013 at 2:34 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 9, 2013 at 6:48 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 2, 2013 at 7:04 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 2, 2013 at 6:08 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Whateverist - July 3, 2013 at 9:32 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 2, 2013 at 9:30 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 3, 2013 at 9:25 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 3, 2013 at 9:49 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 4, 2013 at 7:15 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 4, 2013 at 7:46 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 4, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 5, 2013 at 5:04 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 5, 2013 at 10:10 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 5, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 5, 2013 at 10:55 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 5, 2013 at 11:35 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Angrboda - July 7, 2013 at 2:21 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 7, 2013 at 8:59 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Angrboda - July 7, 2013 at 1:34 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 8, 2013 at 8:17 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by paulpablo - July 3, 2013 at 11:47 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by genkaus - July 4, 2013 at 2:53 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 9:32 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by paulpablo - July 4, 2013 at 12:02 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by genkaus - July 4, 2013 at 3:32 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 4, 2013 at 9:51 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 6:12 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 4, 2013 at 6:34 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 6:46 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 7:01 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 4, 2013 at 7:02 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 7:12 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by simplexity - July 4, 2013 at 7:16 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by simplexity - July 4, 2013 at 7:03 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 4, 2013 at 7:32 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Angrboda - July 5, 2013 at 1:53 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 5, 2013 at 3:42 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Angrboda - July 5, 2013 at 5:05 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by simplexity - July 4, 2013 at 6:52 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by simplexity - July 4, 2013 at 7:00 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by CapnAwesome - July 4, 2013 at 7:14 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by simplexity - July 4, 2013 at 7:30 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by genkaus - July 5, 2013 at 2:26 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 5, 2013 at 3:24 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 5, 2013 at 7:28 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 5, 2013 at 8:18 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by paulpablo - July 5, 2013 at 8:58 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 5, 2013 at 1:02 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 5, 2013 at 1:52 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by paulpablo - July 5, 2013 at 8:09 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Ryantology - July 4, 2013 at 5:23 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Inigo - July 4, 2013 at 7:24 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 4, 2013 at 7:26 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Inigo - July 4, 2013 at 7:34 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Inigo - July 4, 2013 at 7:37 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 5, 2013 at 3:51 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 5, 2013 at 7:14 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by LastPoet - July 5, 2013 at 7:42 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 6, 2013 at 7:32 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 6, 2013 at 10:46 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 6, 2013 at 7:40 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Ryantology - July 7, 2013 at 3:10 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 9, 2013 at 6:10 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 9, 2013 at 6:38 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 9, 2013 at 6:50 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 9, 2013 at 6:56 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 9, 2013 at 8:03 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 9, 2013 at 6:20 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by genkaus - July 9, 2013 at 6:26 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 9, 2013 at 6:27 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by ManMachine - July 9, 2013 at 11:52 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 11, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 7:39 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 11, 2013 at 7:51 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 8:04 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 11, 2013 at 8:35 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 8:40 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 11, 2013 at 8:37 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 11, 2013 at 11:16 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 9, 2013 at 6:54 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 9, 2013 at 7:20 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 10, 2013 at 6:39 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 10, 2013 at 7:50 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 10, 2013 at 8:23 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 11, 2013 at 7:14 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 10, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 10, 2013 at 9:42 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 11, 2013 at 8:43 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 8:49 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 11, 2013 at 8:57 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 9:01 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 11, 2013 at 9:01 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 11, 2013 at 9:06 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 9:11 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 11, 2013 at 9:32 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 11, 2013 at 9:14 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 11, 2013 at 9:39 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 9:42 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 13, 2013 at 2:14 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 13, 2013 at 10:28 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 13, 2013 at 7:50 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 13, 2013 at 8:16 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Angrboda - July 11, 2013 at 1:25 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 11, 2013 at 4:12 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 12, 2013 at 6:04 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 5:24 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 11, 2013 at 9:32 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 9:43 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 11, 2013 at 9:47 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by MindForgedManacle - July 11, 2013 at 10:06 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Koolay - July 12, 2013 at 9:48 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 12, 2013 at 10:00 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 12, 2013 at 10:27 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by genkaus - July 12, 2013 at 10:44 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 12, 2013 at 7:21 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 12, 2013 at 10:17 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 13, 2013 at 7:19 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by max-greece - July 13, 2013 at 4:35 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 13, 2013 at 8:27 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 13, 2013 at 9:30 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 13, 2013 at 10:10 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 14, 2013 at 10:12 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 14, 2013 at 2:35 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 14, 2013 at 2:39 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 14, 2013 at 5:18 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 14, 2013 at 5:34 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 14, 2013 at 1:54 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by KichigaiNeko - July 14, 2013 at 5:35 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 14, 2013 at 8:06 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2013 at 9:17 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 14, 2013 at 10:10 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2013 at 11:28 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 14, 2013 at 12:08 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 14, 2013 at 4:19 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 14, 2013 at 4:34 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 14, 2013 at 4:35 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2013 at 1:32 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 14, 2013 at 3:08 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 14, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 14, 2013 at 9:12 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 15, 2013 at 8:56 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 15, 2013 at 2:58 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 15, 2013 at 8:59 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2013 at 9:20 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Zen Badger - July 15, 2013 at 7:04 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 15, 2013 at 8:14 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 15, 2013 at 5:39 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 16, 2013 at 8:15 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Walking Void - July 16, 2013 at 9:41 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 17, 2013 at 8:16 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Walking Void - July 17, 2013 at 10:43 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 17, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 18, 2013 at 11:03 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 18, 2013 at 7:47 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 19, 2013 at 7:55 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Walking Void - July 18, 2013 at 3:17 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2013 at 8:57 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 18, 2013 at 10:18 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2013 at 7:55 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 19, 2013 at 7:59 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 19, 2013 at 8:39 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2013 at 8:08 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 19, 2013 at 2:45 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 19, 2013 at 3:50 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 19, 2013 at 8:25 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 20, 2013 at 5:11 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 22, 2013 at 10:04 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by pocaracas - July 19, 2013 at 11:24 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Walking Void - July 19, 2013 at 11:31 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2013 at 8:02 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 20, 2013 at 7:01 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2013 at 9:53 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 21, 2013 at 2:49 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2013 at 9:50 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 21, 2013 at 10:52 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2013 at 12:17 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 21, 2013 at 4:37 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Angrboda - July 21, 2013 at 5:42 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 21, 2013 at 7:41 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 22, 2013 at 7:36 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 22, 2013 at 10:36 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 23, 2013 at 9:39 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 22, 2013 at 12:54 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 22, 2013 at 9:52 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Silver - July 22, 2013 at 10:04 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Red Celt - July 22, 2013 at 11:04 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 23, 2013 at 9:00 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 23, 2013 at 8:13 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 24, 2013 at 9:12 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 23, 2013 at 9:24 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 24, 2013 at 12:06 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by Angrboda - July 24, 2013 at 2:30 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 24, 2013 at 3:38 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 24, 2013 at 8:45 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 24, 2013 at 9:29 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 24, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 24, 2013 at 9:55 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 24, 2013 at 7:01 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 24, 2013 at 7:59 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 24, 2013 at 9:21 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by little_monkey - July 25, 2013 at 10:13 am
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by bennyboy - July 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2013 at 8:58 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
Bug Self-Rejection, Self-Sacrifice, Self-Denial VS Egoism, Earthly Pleasures, Hedonism AB Caro 45 6856 April 4, 2025 at 12:31 am
Last Post: Goosebump
  Determinism vs Education Silver 17 2371 October 14, 2021 at 8:10 pm
Last Post: Ranjr
  Is Moral Responsibility Compatible With Determinism? mcc1789 44 8557 June 11, 2019 at 1:34 pm
Last Post: SenseMaker007
  Hybrid theory between freewill and determinism Won2blv 18 5639 July 26, 2017 at 10:57 am
Last Post: Rev. Rye
  Is the idea of self a coherent concept? bennyboy 5 1596 January 1, 2017 at 10:21 am
Last Post: Angrboda
  Is the self all that can be known to exist? Excited Penguin 132 24278 December 15, 2016 at 7:32 pm
Last Post: Tonus
  The Definitive Post On The Free Will v. Determinism Debate BrianSoddingBoru4 17 4381 September 3, 2016 at 11:20 pm
Last Post: Arkilogue
  Self-Validating Empirical Epistemology? Ignorant 69 13485 May 26, 2016 at 7:49 pm
Last Post: Ben Davis
  Does a "True Self" Exist? Salacious B. Crumb 68 18729 July 17, 2015 at 6:11 am
Last Post: chasbanner
  Necessary First Principles, Self-Evident Truths Mudhammam 4 2093 July 10, 2015 at 9:48 pm
Last Post: Pyrrho



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)