RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 5, 2013 at 11:35 pm
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2013 at 11:37 pm by bennyboy.)
(July 5, 2013 at 10:55 am)pocaracas Wrote: It is a weird universe.... but the universe would be there, even if no minds were in it...So you mean all that wonderful mechanism could still tick along with no sentience at all? 1) Agree; 2) How could we possibly prove that to someone who didn't believe it?
Quote:Yes, it's also what I said before: no one has ever measured a mind, an energy whatnot flowing independently from the brain.That's a pretty funny definition of mind. My definition is "subjective awareness of thoughts and ideas." And who says that an inability to measure something means it isn't realy? That's pretty science-y but not really true-y.
What is measured is a brain working. And it works differently when the person is doing different tasks. So your mind is then correlated with brain activity.
Quote:OH, so you want to postulate that mind is brain activity and something else?I don't need to postulate any theories, since the existence of mind stands as brute fact. You are saying that mind is identical to brain function; however, to me this is an abuse of what the word means; mind is experienced, and can only be subjective; the brain is an object and can only be objective.
Feel free to do so... but do bear in mind that there's no evidence to support it.... only wishful thinking... and since we're wishing for it, I'd like my mind to do some magic! Telekinesis, teletransport, etc...
To demand that the mind be seen as objective is to invoke Monty Python's parrot: "It's not dead. It's pining." Except it isn't.
Quote:Why does a mind exist, when it's just electrical wiring? Because you need high-order functionality to interpret the world, evade predators, mate, eat, survive...Who's this "you" you're talking about, who is making a willful attempt to track and react to data? I think you mean "the brain function referred to for the sake of convenience as bennyboy," right?
Don't you think you'd be a bit overwhelmed if you had to somehow keep track of each and every neuron firing in your brain?
Ahh, but here's your problem. If you want to take the ghosts out of the machine, you have to take them ALL out: not just free will, but also love and anger, as well as your own self-identity, which is much more an idea than a physical reality. You look yourself in the mirror and say, "You don't exist except as a symbolic representation of the activities of quantum particles AND NOTHING MORE" And if you can do that and believe it, then I'll start thinking you have a point about free will and the mind.
