RE: Unconventional Religion
July 29, 2013 at 9:21 am
(This post was last modified: July 29, 2013 at 9:24 am by DeistPaladin.)
...More on the original motives behind Christianity...
Before I go into detail on what seems to me at least to be a compelling scenario behind the formation of Christian theology, it is essential to review exactly what that is and how it differs from Judaism. Christians like to imagine that their religion is the seamless fulfillment of Judaism and that Jesus was the prophesied messiah. In reality, Jesus is at odds with the OT that would be difficult to explain without relying upon pagan influences.
Jesus: Evolved Not Intelligently Designed
First, there's the fact that Jesus hardly fits the bill. The Jews were waiting for a warlord that would lead Israel to glory over her enemies, not a meek and mild hippie preaching a gospel of peace and promising universal salvation to all people who came to him. If you arrange the NT books in the order in which they were written, you can already begin to see how the Christ character evolved:
Revelation
Epistles
Gospel of Mark
Gospels of Matthew and Luke
Gospel of John
The Jesus of Revelation is the closest to what the Jews were expecting. He was a celestial warlord who leads an army to triumph over Israel's enemies. The character clearly evolved by the time we got to Mark. Christians like to imagine that this is because Jesus would first come as a lamb and later as a lion. In scripture, he was first made as a lion and later remade as a lamb. The Epistles had little to say of Jesus' trip to earth ("take and eat", a quoted reference to the pagan Eucharist is the only quotation of Christ's earthly life as found in the Epistles that I'm aware of). They were more concerned with a celestial lord that had existed from the beginning and had sacrificed himself and offered us salvation. He was brought down to earth in Mark but this bio starts with his baptism. His childhood and birth would later be fleshed out in Matthew and Luke, both working independently to expand Mark and both coming up with very different stories. These "Synoptic" Gospels depict a Jesus who is clearly separate from and subordinate to his father, a point that creates a problem for strict Jewish monotheism. Jesus would later be rewritten as God-incarnate in John's Gospel, the only one compatible with Trinitarian theology.
That last point underscores a profound problem for the new religion. Judaism is strictly monotheistic (or at least it was by the time of Christianity but I won't go into early Jewish polytheism in this post). It's god was extremely jealous and shared the spotlight with no being. Who is this upstart that wants to take center-stage? And how can he claim to be the intercessor for the divine when the Jewish OT god strictly forbade it?
And let's not forget the very first commandment:
So the OT *forbids* us to have an intercessor.
So the NT *requires* us to have an intercessor.
In fact, the OT seems to require that a blasphemer like Jesus be put to death:
The Evolution of Hell and the Afterlife
So what do we need a savior for again? To save us from what again?
Hell is a word you won't find in the OT if it's properly translated. The Jews believed (and may still believe, I need to ask sometime) in Sheol, which means "the grave". A proper discussion of the evolution of the afterlife in the Bible is discussed by this YouTube video series starting here:
So where did Hell come from then?
One of the words used to describe Hell is "Gehenna", a Greek word that refers to the Valley of Hinom, just outside Jerusalem. This was the site of an ancient temple to Baal where supposedly children were sacrificed by being thrown into the fire. This valley is discussed in OT scripture:
This reference is understood by Christian apologists. Pat Robertson confirms this in his teachings on Hell.
Later Jews would shun settlement in this valley, using it as a garbage dump where refuse was burned. As a final insult to those executed criminals, their bodies would not be buried but rather thrown into this valley and burned with the rest of the refuse.
So let's review:
Gehenna is:
Sound familiar?
It's easy to see how this idea of Hell evolved and was incorporated into Christianity.
I have to go but will write more later as I'm able. Stay tuned...
Before I go into detail on what seems to me at least to be a compelling scenario behind the formation of Christian theology, it is essential to review exactly what that is and how it differs from Judaism. Christians like to imagine that their religion is the seamless fulfillment of Judaism and that Jesus was the prophesied messiah. In reality, Jesus is at odds with the OT that would be difficult to explain without relying upon pagan influences.
Jesus: Evolved Not Intelligently Designed
First, there's the fact that Jesus hardly fits the bill. The Jews were waiting for a warlord that would lead Israel to glory over her enemies, not a meek and mild hippie preaching a gospel of peace and promising universal salvation to all people who came to him. If you arrange the NT books in the order in which they were written, you can already begin to see how the Christ character evolved:
Revelation
Epistles
Gospel of Mark
Gospels of Matthew and Luke
Gospel of John
The Jesus of Revelation is the closest to what the Jews were expecting. He was a celestial warlord who leads an army to triumph over Israel's enemies. The character clearly evolved by the time we got to Mark. Christians like to imagine that this is because Jesus would first come as a lamb and later as a lion. In scripture, he was first made as a lion and later remade as a lamb. The Epistles had little to say of Jesus' trip to earth ("take and eat", a quoted reference to the pagan Eucharist is the only quotation of Christ's earthly life as found in the Epistles that I'm aware of). They were more concerned with a celestial lord that had existed from the beginning and had sacrificed himself and offered us salvation. He was brought down to earth in Mark but this bio starts with his baptism. His childhood and birth would later be fleshed out in Matthew and Luke, both working independently to expand Mark and both coming up with very different stories. These "Synoptic" Gospels depict a Jesus who is clearly separate from and subordinate to his father, a point that creates a problem for strict Jewish monotheism. Jesus would later be rewritten as God-incarnate in John's Gospel, the only one compatible with Trinitarian theology.
That last point underscores a profound problem for the new religion. Judaism is strictly monotheistic (or at least it was by the time of Christianity but I won't go into early Jewish polytheism in this post). It's god was extremely jealous and shared the spotlight with no being. Who is this upstart that wants to take center-stage? And how can he claim to be the intercessor for the divine when the Jewish OT god strictly forbade it?
Quote:Isaiah 43:10-12 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
And let's not forget the very first commandment:
Quote:Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
So the OT *forbids* us to have an intercessor.
Quote:John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
So the NT *requires* us to have an intercessor.
In fact, the OT seems to require that a blasphemer like Jesus be put to death:
Quote:Deuteronomy 13:1-6 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
The Evolution of Hell and the Afterlife
So what do we need a savior for again? To save us from what again?
Hell is a word you won't find in the OT if it's properly translated. The Jews believed (and may still believe, I need to ask sometime) in Sheol, which means "the grave". A proper discussion of the evolution of the afterlife in the Bible is discussed by this YouTube video series starting here:
So where did Hell come from then?
One of the words used to describe Hell is "Gehenna", a Greek word that refers to the Valley of Hinom, just outside Jerusalem. This was the site of an ancient temple to Baal where supposedly children were sacrificed by being thrown into the fire. This valley is discussed in OT scripture:
Quote:Jeremiah 19:4-6 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.
This reference is understood by Christian apologists. Pat Robertson confirms this in his teachings on Hell.
Pat Robertson Wrote:Now, what is Hell like? Jesus said it's like Gehenna. Gehenna was the city dump outside of Jerusalem. He said the fire is never quenched and the worm does not die. It was eternal burning, a place of refuse and burning, and He used that to describe Hell.
Later Jews would shun settlement in this valley, using it as a garbage dump where refuse was burned. As a final insult to those executed criminals, their bodies would not be buried but rather thrown into this valley and burned with the rest of the refuse.
So let's review:
Gehenna is:
- A place associated with a sadistic god
- A place associated with a rival of the Judeo-Christian god
- A place of torment and suffering
- A place of fire
- A place where the wicked would be tossed after their death
Sound familiar?
It's easy to see how this idea of Hell evolved and was incorporated into Christianity.
I have to go but will write more later as I'm able. Stay tuned...
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
