(July 28, 2013 at 10:39 am)HalcyonicTrust Wrote:(July 20, 2013 at 6:23 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: P1) Humans have free will to choose otherwise than they did (libertarian).
They have ultimate choice in a non-random self-determined way? I think not.
Either:
1.
We are ultimately fully unconsciously determined.
or
2. We are ultimately entirely undetermined.
Either way there is no ultimate self-determination, ultimate moral responsibility or so called "free will".
I agree, I don't accept it, but you'd be pressed to find theists that don't (Calvinist-predestinationists notwithstanding). Libertarian free will is basically untenable as things stand.