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Pleasure and Joy
#14
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(August 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Some people like pain and find it pleasurable...

Hi Paulpablo,
Thank you for giving very thought provoking comments. It is good to know that you support your arguments and comments with references. Normally, people simply expose their likeness or dislikes without proper reasoning. In our normal lives, this behaviour is acceptable but in forums, like this, people should support their arguments and reasoning with supportive material.
Coming to your point

“Some people like pain and find it pleasurable…”

Indeed, there are exceptional cases in human societies where pain is the mean of pleasure however, that was not point of my reasoning. What I stressed upon was:
Why we feel the pleasure and pain in our bodies? In other words, what makes us feel the physical sensations or what is sensation itself?
The same goes to love and other human emotions. Primarily love starts with the physical sensations in our bodies. When I see a beautiful flower, an innocent toddler, or a pretty face of a young woman my sensation starts with my physical vision. Light photons when react with the retina of my eyes that retina produces a map of incoming photons, and convert them to a nerval stimuli. It is the sense of my vision that provokes further feelings in me. Likewise, when sound waves of some beautiful melody hit my ears only then I have sensation of a harmony and that causes further development in my feelings and emotions.
All intellectuals have agreed that human life is a compound of
1. Physical body
2. Energy (life) that causes body to perform different physical acts and
3. Self-consciousness
Science tackled with the first two parameters up to a limited extent but severely failed to give any explanation to the self-consciousness. All human feelings and emotions are entangled with this self-consciousness. Physical body only functions as a means of transport to bring different sensations to our self-consciousness. Science fails to explain self-consciousness and with that automatically fails to explain different human emotions. Science may give details on different procedures of chemical reactions and neural activities within our brains but it can’t explicate sensation.
It is this self-consciousness that experience perceptual experiences, such as tastings and seeing; bodily-sensational experiences, such as those of pains, tickles and itches; imaginative experiences, such as those of one’s own actions or perceptions; and streams of thought, as in the experience of thinking ‘in words’ or ‘in images’.
Phenomenally conscious experiences have been argued to be nonphysical, or at least inexplicable in the manner of other physical entities. Several such arguments allege that phenomenal experience is ‘subjective’; that understanding some experiences requires undergoing them (or their components). The claim is that any objective physical science would leave an ‘explanatory gap’, failing to describe what it is like to have a particular experience and failing to explain why there are phenomenal experiences at all.
Now philosophers attempted to explain this self-consciousness but they also find themselves limited due their dependability over human thoughts. Means, our imaginations work based on the knowledge of physical senses and our emotional experiences. Things, which transcend knowledge and emotional experiences, have no place in our thoughts. However, there are certain things that give us experiential clues about their existence but we have no other means to dig more about those clues. We don’t have any means to see them with our physical eyes or have a physical experience but those things are part of our bodies and we experience non-physical and non-explicable phenomenon within our bodies. It is this self-consciousness to which philosophers has given names like “I”, “Ego”, “Dasein”, “Being”, “Self”, etc. whereas Religions named it “Soul” or “Spirit”.
Science failed to show any pathway to self-consciousness but philosophy has gone a step ahead and proved the existence of self-consciousness. However, philosophy also failed to give comprehensive explanation due to certain limitations. The only school of thought, which gives precise meanings of “Self or Soul”, is the Religion. The problem with Religion is that it does give the meaning of Spirit but without further elaborations. Religion asks for faith.

I am pleased that you have quoted several Ayat (verses) from Quran to give weight in your reasoning.

In order to understand these Ayat you should have some basic knowledge on fundamental ideology of Islamic Theology.

You should have some background why Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and all other Semitic prophets were counted as most honourable people in the world. What those prophets have taught their followers about human life? Why sincere followers of those Prophets are also counted as the best people? Who are in fact disbelievers? Why disbelievers are hated people according to divine scripture? Why Quran ask to use logic and reason? Etc.

It is a huge topic but I will try to elaborate concisely. If something is not clear or you feel something is missing then don’t hesitate to ask. Due to the restrictions of this forum I am writing only most important points in short.

If you study life of different Prophets, you will find few things in common in their teachings:

1. God is the creator and owner of everything that exist
2. Fear God. He hates human Arrogance and love human Humbleness
3. There is life after death and every person would be accountable for his/her worldly deeds

Keep these points at the back of your mind and read the following text.

Point 1.
Today scientists and philosophers, whether they belong to theist or atheist schools of thoughts, agrees that within or outside the universe there is nothing so called “Nothingness”. Almost everyone now agrees that there is nothing in the universe, which comes out of “Nothingness” as “Nothingness” simply doesn’t exist. Now if there is “No Nothingness” then from where the roots of this universe grew? Why there is a balance in the universe, why not a chaos? Things like Chance has least value scientifically, logically, rationally, and empirically in all aspects of human understanding. CHANCE sparkles mostly in the vicinity of human desires.

Theist uses the word God and simplifies his task to explain this “No Nothingness”. However, atheist finds it hard to give explanation to this “No Nothingness” and come up with different theories and models. Like multiverse model, inflationary model, string theory, etc. but all these hypotheses are highly speculative scientifically. Before atheist argued that universe exists from eternity, will exist up to eternity but scientific facts force him to accept that universe was not eternal, and will not be eternal. Now atheist doesn’t argue against the origin of universe but in parallel he has no logical explanation on what caused this universe if there is no Super Intelligent Being, “God”.

Another thing, which astounds all scientists and philosophers, are the subjects of Grand Design and Supernatural Balance in the universe. Universe is a place of order, balance, and symmetry. Think of the earth if it moves only 1 cm towards or away from the sun, this short deviation from its path becomes a threat to life on earth. Look at the human body how accurate and perfectly balanced functions are happening within it without our own incentives. Simply look at the function of genes and that alone gives you surprises after surprises.

By words, one can deny the existence of God but no one can explain how this grand design and fine-tuning is running on its own. It is a laughable joke for us if someone says his wristwatch caused by some desert as a matter of chance and it is running precisely by its own without the need of operator. However, we don’t laugh when we say this humongous and intricate universe caused by itself as a matter of chance and it is running super precisely by its own.

Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water which Allah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs, etc.) for people of understanding.
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 164-
Al Quran

Point 2.
Classical utilitarians argued that human beings care about only two things: getting pleasure and avoiding pain. The best life must therefore be the one with the greatest balance of pleasure over pain. Others claim that the goodness of your life is a function of how many of your desires are satisfied and the strength of those desires. But the content of your desires and their strength may be determined in unfortunate ways by the limitations of your knowledge or imagination, and this may lead you to adopt an idealized version of this account and bring you to the risk of being arrogant.

When the main faculties of appetite, anger and intellect are moderate, harmonious and well-balanced, then we find the virtues of temperance, courage, wisdom and justice. In reality, however, there is excess or deficiency in each faculty, and so we find various vicious characteristics. The fundamental cause for all this is love of the world.

Pain and pleasure is so dominant over human conscience that all human activities circulate around the impressions of pain and pleasure only. People like pleasure so much that many time pleasure seekers jumps over the boundary of morals and ethics. In order to control harmful action concept of punishment evolved.

However, history is evident that the concept of punishment is not for everyone. Where excessive powers to certain individuals are necessary in order to keep balance in a society the side effects of it comes in form of promotions of arrogance and producing tyrant rulers. Unfortunately, tyrant ruler has no fear of punishment as psychologically he is under impression that all the power to punish and reward belongs to him. For the control of such characters, the fear of God becomes crucial. If such fear doesn’t exist in the society then unjust acts prevail and slowly make every individual slave of the ruler whether directly or indirectly. It is the fear of God that keeps powerful people from being tyrant and general people from being dishonest.

Arrogance mainly comes from erroneous views of self. Rather than indulge in egoistic fantasies, one ought to rely on the power and grace of Supreme Master who designed and balanced this unfathomable universe with justice and wisdom (see point 1).

Prophets taught humbleness for the wellbeing of a society. This humbleness not only generate wisdom among people but also causes orderliness that consists of social distinctions or divisions in various kinds of human relationships, namely, the distinctions between father and son, the eminent and the humble, the elder and the younger, and the rich and the poor, members of society. The respect of others, which is the foundation of a wellbeing society, based on humble character of its members.

All Semitic Prophets were the great example of humbleness and piety. They had shown great living models of how a person can be gentle with helpless and needy people and in parallel what courage and power he may has to crash himself in the armies of tyrant rulers. All Prophets and their sincere followers are the best men in entire human race. An Arrogant man cannot be equal to a humble person. Arrogant man don’t care for human values whereas humble man follows all moral laws and abide by them even if he has to sacrifice for the welfare of his society. A humble man has a faith of God and it is this faith, which makes him gentle. Without having fear of God, a person is at a risk to adopt an arrogant and mean character.

The Ayat you have quoted from Quran represent all humble people, whether they were prophets or they are common and general people, to be the best of all people. Likewise, the law that teaches equality in human rights is the best of all laws. On the contrary, people who spend their lives by following their desires without any care to moral and human values are the worst of all people.

Don’t think if a person is a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Polytheist, Atheist or whatever would get divine salvation based on what religious label he wears over his forehead. Everyone would be accountable for his/her deeds. A Muslim can also be in Hell Fire if he won’t follow the Divine Law and spread mischief in a society.

"And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster.
Luqman (31)
-Verse 18-

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 87-

Point 3.
Not far back in the human history, we have seen a great example of arrogant man. Adolf Hitler. The effects of his endeavours resonate even today. I brought Hitler in this point to elucidate the concept of justice.

Because of Hitler’s arrogance, more than 10,000,000 people have lost their lives. Unknown number of people lived rest of their lives as invalids and uncountable children lived their young days as orphans. Normal people suffer with lack of food, medicine and other common requirements of life.

Suppose if at the end of Second World War Hitler was captured and brought to some Jewish court, what in your opinion might be the most horrendous punishment that Hitler could get? Human body is weak enough and can’t afford physical pain beyond a certain limit. So do you think One Capital Punishment for Hitler would be the answer to all the lives he ruined? Do you call it justice?

We know that in every culture, there are arrogant people who are living lustful lives and there are humble people who live quietly with humbleness who don’t even expose if they are going through some sufferings. Do you think that people who are clever in doing crime and living their lives in their dream worlds and without having any fear to be caught and punished are successful people and people who are facing sufferings and yet they are humble with their fellow people are donkeys?

Tyrants and criminals are using justice for the fulfilment of their immoral desires. Leaders are creating laws based on their immodest and mean requirements to make their lives pleasurable up to the maximum possible level.

Logically, without God there is a big vacuum in the model of human Justice. If Law of Allah prevails only then there would be a true justice in the world.
Unfortunately, in the world I can’t show you a real model of Islamic society. Many Muslim countries are also under heavy influence of materialism.

For example:
Why rape is common in the west why not in Saudi Arabia? Because Saudi Arabia has implemented Shariah Law for Rapist and that is a capital punishment. If you imply this law in the west then do you think rape cases would increase or decrease? I say they will totally disappear only after few people will get punishment.

It is only faith in God, faith in resurrection, and faith in the Day of Judgment, which gives support and power to good and humble people who are living their lives in sufferings and needs yet they are satisfied and happy as for them this life is not the end of journey.

Moses said: "I have indeed called upon my Lord and your Lord (for protection) from every arrogant one who believes not in the Day of Account!"
Al Mu'min (40)
-Verse 27-

It is Allah Who sends forth the Winds, so that they raise up the Clouds, and We drive them to a land that is dead, and revive the earth therewith after its death: even so (will be) the Resurrection!
Faathir (35)
-Verse 9-
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Messages In This Thread
Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Silver - May 8, 2013 at 2:50 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - May 9, 2013 at 2:25 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by littleendian - May 21, 2013 at 7:54 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Baalzebutt - May 8, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Angrboda - May 8, 2013 at 5:54 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - May 21, 2013 at 10:05 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Tonus - May 21, 2013 at 10:14 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 24, 2013 at 11:46 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 25, 2013 at 7:07 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Fidel_Castronaut - August 31, 2013 at 8:11 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 25, 2013 at 7:19 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 26, 2013 at 1:09 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 26, 2013 at 6:50 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 25, 2013 at 1:58 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Walking Void - August 25, 2013 at 9:04 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by freedomfromforum - August 25, 2013 at 12:40 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2013 at 7:54 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 26, 2013 at 8:21 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 26, 2013 at 11:58 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 27, 2013 at 5:11 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 27, 2013 at 10:06 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 27, 2013 at 10:31 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 27, 2013 at 4:31 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Bad Writer - August 27, 2013 at 8:46 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 27, 2013 at 11:32 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 31, 2013 at 7:07 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 31, 2013 at 10:23 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 31, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 6, 2013 at 3:49 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 7, 2013 at 2:38 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 7, 2013 at 2:21 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 7, 2013 at 2:40 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 28, 2013 at 1:46 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 28, 2013 at 4:27 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 31, 2013 at 7:18 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Esquilax - August 31, 2013 at 8:19 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 6, 2013 at 4:13 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 6, 2013 at 5:19 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 7, 2013 at 2:47 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 7, 2013 at 2:50 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 7, 2013 at 2:54 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 9, 2013 at 4:08 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 9, 2013 at 4:11 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Fidel_Castronaut - September 7, 2013 at 5:34 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 7, 2013 at 1:56 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 7, 2013 at 3:45 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 9, 2013 at 3:47 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 9, 2013 at 3:51 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 9, 2013 at 5:10 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 12, 2013 at 1:33 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 12, 2013 at 3:54 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 15, 2013 at 7:52 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 15, 2013 at 10:17 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 15, 2013 at 4:18 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 15, 2013 at 1:18 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 25, 2013 at 12:40 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Zazzy - September 25, 2013 at 1:08 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 27, 2013 at 8:27 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 12, 2013 at 5:24 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 31, 2013 at 11:05 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 7, 2013 at 1:51 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 7, 2013 at 2:12 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 7, 2013 at 2:52 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 9, 2013 at 4:41 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by FifthElement - September 1, 2013 at 12:23 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - August 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Ryantology - August 28, 2013 at 8:54 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 28, 2013 at 9:37 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Captain Colostomy - August 28, 2013 at 9:54 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 28, 2013 at 11:06 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Bad Writer - August 28, 2013 at 11:21 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Esquilax - August 29, 2013 at 4:21 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Anomalocaris - August 29, 2013 at 11:01 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Silver - August 29, 2013 at 4:42 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - August 29, 2013 at 11:15 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Captain Colostomy - August 30, 2013 at 1:34 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 27, 2013 at 7:35 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 27, 2013 at 9:12 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 25, 2013 at 9:14 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 27, 2013 at 7:13 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - August 31, 2013 at 6:51 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 31, 2013 at 7:18 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 7, 2013 at 1:49 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 9, 2013 at 2:10 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 9, 2013 at 3:11 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 9, 2013 at 3:28 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 28, 2013 at 5:29 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - August 28, 2013 at 8:29 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 28, 2013 at 8:44 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 28, 2013 at 7:39 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 28, 2013 at 8:39 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 29, 2013 at 2:18 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 29, 2013 at 9:36 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 30, 2013 at 1:36 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - August 30, 2013 at 9:44 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Ryantology - August 30, 2013 at 10:05 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Esquilax - August 30, 2013 at 10:30 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 30, 2013 at 11:32 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Captain Colostomy - August 28, 2013 at 11:24 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - August 30, 2013 at 6:18 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 30, 2013 at 7:44 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 31, 2013 at 12:43 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - August 31, 2013 at 4:18 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - August 31, 2013 at 6:54 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - August 31, 2013 at 7:06 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 1, 2013 at 12:00 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 1, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 1, 2013 at 3:27 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 1, 2013 at 6:25 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 1, 2013 at 11:32 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 1, 2013 at 5:22 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 2, 2013 at 5:41 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 2, 2013 at 6:16 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 2, 2013 at 7:40 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 2, 2013 at 8:28 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 2, 2013 at 9:23 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 2, 2013 at 8:59 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 2, 2013 at 11:33 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 3, 2013 at 12:41 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 3, 2013 at 1:43 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 3, 2013 at 7:14 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 3, 2013 at 11:30 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 3, 2013 at 5:16 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 3, 2013 at 5:34 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 3, 2013 at 9:06 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 3, 2013 at 7:35 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - August 31, 2013 at 11:03 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by StuW - August 31, 2013 at 8:41 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - August 31, 2013 at 1:13 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 1, 2013 at 12:18 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 1, 2013 at 12:49 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Chas - September 2, 2013 at 10:28 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Walking Void - September 1, 2013 at 9:39 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 1, 2013 at 9:50 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Walking Void - September 1, 2013 at 10:15 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 1, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 2, 2013 at 10:49 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 2, 2013 at 11:35 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 2, 2013 at 10:33 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 3, 2013 at 8:52 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 4, 2013 at 12:39 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 4, 2013 at 2:55 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 4, 2013 at 3:02 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 4, 2013 at 8:01 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 4, 2013 at 8:33 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 4, 2013 at 10:31 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 4, 2013 at 10:39 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 4, 2013 at 7:57 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2013 at 9:03 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 5, 2013 at 12:10 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 5, 2013 at 12:49 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 5, 2013 at 1:01 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 5, 2013 at 1:09 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 5, 2013 at 1:29 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 5, 2013 at 1:36 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 5, 2013 at 3:39 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 5, 2013 at 8:11 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 5, 2013 at 11:15 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 5, 2013 at 6:16 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 5, 2013 at 9:12 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 5, 2013 at 7:15 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 6, 2013 at 2:41 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 6, 2013 at 5:36 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 6, 2013 at 8:52 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 6, 2013 at 10:45 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - September 6, 2013 at 11:22 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 6, 2013 at 7:38 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Cato - September 5, 2013 at 11:25 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by downbeatplumb - September 6, 2013 at 1:46 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by bennyboy - September 6, 2013 at 6:40 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Fidel_Castronaut - September 7, 2013 at 2:25 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 9, 2013 at 3:52 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 9, 2013 at 4:06 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Fidel_Castronaut - September 17, 2013 at 4:26 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 25, 2013 at 2:06 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 26, 2013 at 1:58 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 26, 2013 at 1:01 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Neo-Scholastic - September 7, 2013 at 9:27 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by downbeatplumb - September 15, 2013 at 8:01 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - September 17, 2013 at 1:09 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 17, 2013 at 2:02 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 17, 2013 at 5:48 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - September 26, 2013 at 3:10 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by gilbertc06 - September 21, 2013 at 5:08 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - October 6, 2013 at 1:25 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Harris - October 6, 2013 at 2:28 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by genkaus - October 6, 2013 at 4:32 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - October 6, 2013 at 4:57 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Zazzy - October 7, 2013 at 9:13 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by paulpablo - October 7, 2013 at 1:39 pm
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by KichigaiNeko - October 6, 2013 at 4:39 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by max-greece - October 6, 2013 at 4:43 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by Esquilax - October 6, 2013 at 5:57 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by KichigaiNeko - October 6, 2013 at 4:44 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by max-greece - October 6, 2013 at 6:07 am
RE: Pleasure and Joy - by gilbertc06 - October 6, 2013 at 10:48 pm

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