(September 3, 2013 at 6:33 pm)whateverist Wrote: I've never been sure what to make of the Libet results. If neuroscience measures activity which precedes our conscious realization of our choice, is it measuring a process on its way to becoming our choice or is it measuring a process which leaves us out? How do we decide which it is? Surely no one is so naive as to think discursive thoughts unattached to any desires, habits or drives are the source of volition. Must actions which the will undertakes freely have to be ones in which we are able to choose consciously between alternatives as if on a whim? If so, then free will is an odd idea. But if free will means we are unrestrained in acting to attain that which in fact we want, then we sure seem to have that. In fact we may even at times be capable of acting unconsciously to attain what we want, as when our hand flies off the hot stove to attain our desire not to burn.
Of course we are not free to choose what we want because what we want is one of the ways to characterize who we are. So we can no more choose what we want than we can choose to be a different person or species. Furthermore, why would we want to do that? If free will requires the capacity to be who we want to be or feel we should be, then I don't think we have that kind of freedom.
I think in fairness to neuroscience, Libet's conclusions are still up for debate. Dennett pointed out attention may play a part in the delay between the subconscious activity leading up to the conscious action, and there are experimental results that appear to bear this out. Having said that this doesn't fully negate Libet's conclusions, it just qualifies them.
Furthermore, as you rightly point out, that perceived freedom could be curtailed by individual developmental and personality factors. It is certainly the case that the idea of free will is important to us on a social level. It plays a vital part in our value systems, and perhaps the answer lies there. That is where I was coming from with my question, does neuroscience have anything to say about the idea of free will or does the debate stall without its input?
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
