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Free Will, Free Won't?
#26
RE: Free Will, Free Won't?
(September 18, 2013 at 5:05 am)Zone Wrote: you're claiming to not have your own opinion or the ability to think for yourself which would invalidate your position. So we don't have free choice to not think we have the free choice.

I'm sorry for not making myself clear enough. I am not saying that I don't have an opinion. I'm saying that the opinion I have is determined by past events and experiences. I have no control over the experiences, nor my perception of them. My perception of any given event is the product of previous experiences equally beyond my control. My opinion at this very moment is the product of all of those variables, hence, it is determined by them. You seem to think that I am arguing for fatalism, which I am not. I am saying that, at every moment, we all act in a manner that is consistent with who we are, and could not act any differently. The moment we act, that deciscion was determined by factors beyond your control. The origin of the thoughts you use to process the information that informs each deciscion are equally mysterious as they appear into consciousness.

While I agree that we can change, I believe that my conscious experience of that change is more accurately a witness to it, and not the agent in control of it.

The notion of Free-Will comes from how we identify ourselves with a specific channel of information. Upon closer inspection, we can see that we are no more in control over that flow of information, than we are over the 100 trillion bacteria that carry out necessary functions within our bodies, and are just as much a part of me as my subconscious. If I cannot control the agenda of my spleen, I cannot be held accountable for when it malfunctions. It's creepy to think about, but, the same argument can be made for our subconscious mind, and it is our subconscious that feeds the conscious.

Are you free to choose that which does not occur to you to choose?

Are you free to think that which does not occur to you in thought?

Are you free to choose that which you are unaware of as an option?

Where is the freedom? Again, all of this is contingent upon what is commonly understood about the notion of free-will. That our conscious-self, is the source of our thoughts and decisions. Don't use a psychological fact to satisfy a philosophical problem.

(September 18, 2013 at 12:09 am)whateverist Wrote: If the only way to be free is to be anyone and no one, well I wouldn't choose that sort of freedom anyway. For me, it is no loss of freedom if I am free to be me.

I'm pretty sure there is an irresolvable paradox here.

You may be right sir. I feel like my experience of self, upon closer examination, seems to be more accurately described as a witness to experience rather than the agent in control. I find it fascinating that I can still muster a sense of identity from it. The sense of self I notice just seems to be much bigger than I regularly recognize. The conscious-me is just the tip of the iceberg. These descriptions are really only necessary when trying to nail down a two dimensional description of who we are, but I just think that a deterministic description is a bit more accurate than the illusion of being completely free to do any ole thing in the world!
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Messages In This Thread
Free Will, Free Won't? - by ManMachine - September 1, 2013 at 5:35 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by MindForgedManacle - September 2, 2013 at 3:20 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by ManMachine - September 3, 2013 at 5:56 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Whateverist - September 3, 2013 at 6:33 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by ManMachine - September 3, 2013 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 16, 2013 at 6:05 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Ryantology - September 16, 2013 at 6:29 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Whateverist - September 16, 2013 at 7:33 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by ManMachine - September 17, 2013 at 8:14 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 17, 2013 at 8:39 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by ManMachine - September 17, 2013 at 4:29 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Whateverist - September 17, 2013 at 11:01 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 17, 2013 at 11:12 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 17, 2013 at 11:37 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by gall - September 17, 2013 at 1:31 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 17, 2013 at 5:51 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Whateverist - September 18, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 17, 2013 at 6:31 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 17, 2013 at 7:10 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 17, 2013 at 7:27 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 17, 2013 at 7:44 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 18, 2013 at 5:05 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Whateverist - September 18, 2013 at 7:18 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by ManMachine - September 18, 2013 at 7:38 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 18, 2013 at 8:27 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 18, 2013 at 8:47 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 18, 2013 at 9:04 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 18, 2013 at 9:04 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 18, 2013 at 9:53 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 18, 2013 at 12:01 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 18, 2013 at 3:38 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 18, 2013 at 8:11 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 18, 2013 at 5:07 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 18, 2013 at 5:27 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 19, 2013 at 6:24 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 19, 2013 at 6:28 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 19, 2013 at 7:11 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 19, 2013 at 7:32 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 19, 2013 at 11:30 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 19, 2013 at 11:46 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Whateverist - September 19, 2013 at 4:09 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by bennyboy - September 22, 2013 at 5:21 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by MindForgedManacle - September 23, 2013 at 11:26 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by gilbertc06 - September 24, 2013 at 12:19 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by MindForgedManacle - September 25, 2013 at 1:23 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 19, 2013 at 12:19 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by Zone - September 19, 2013 at 12:27 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by gall - September 20, 2013 at 12:29 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 19, 2013 at 1:32 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by The Reality Salesman - September 19, 2013 at 7:32 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by gilbertc06 - September 21, 2013 at 4:30 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by *Deidre* - September 27, 2013 at 11:48 am
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by ManMachine - September 27, 2013 at 6:49 pm
RE: Free Will, Free Won't? - by *Deidre* - September 27, 2013 at 10:34 pm



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