Pleasure and Joy

[Harris]

So what currently unknown scientific discoveries does the Quran predict?

There are no scientific predictions in Quran. There are predictions about the torments for people who transgress the moral values for the sake of their personal pleasures and joys and predictions about unimaginable joy and pleasure for those who live a humble life for the pleasure of God.

Scientific signs are there to intensify warnings or strengthen good tidings.

People in the life of Prophet Mohammad were illiterate. First, they were far from cultural and educational environment second no one knows anything about science. Prophet Mohammad was one of those illiterate people. However, they believed in Quran not because they had all the scientific knowledge to understand scientific clues in Quran. They were believers because they have understood the nature of their own beings through the teachings of Quran.

Circular reasoning.

Please elaborate what is circular here.

Also, why people believe the words written down in a holy book is irrelevent in respect to whether there is any evidence behind the words. That sounds like an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Quran is full of evidences. It is the fault of people who don’t value these evidences based on their mere disbeliefs and don’t investigate their authenticity. They fail to realize that science and materialism on which they rely, had been proven inadequate in many cases specially in giving explanation to non-material concepts.

The whole universe is bound by certain intelligent piece of code. For instance, a palm tree grows to a certain average height and doesn’t exceed the limits. Likewise, bee builds its hive and spider knits its web in specific pattern according to code of commands they have embedded in their nature. Look how everything come into being, through what systematic procedures it goes through, every development is going through according to a fixed code of instructions. Each gene of human being has a system of code. Whether it’s an atom or a star, living thing or non-living thing, beginning, existence, actions, and age of everything in the universe are controlled by some intelligent code of commands. How everything getting those codes and who is responsible for writing those intelligent codes, science has no explanation for that.

Quran is inviting people to contemplate over these facts. It has given sufficient common sense examples on human nature, which needs no scholastic background for comprehension. Although Quran has given sufficient examples from the external world but you have evidences within your own being. You need not to look in the external world to get to the truth; the truth is within your own person.

Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;
Al Infithaar (82)
-Verse 7-

Anyway, you like to hear about God or not but this concept is embedded in our conscience. From the caveman era to present day, whole human history manifest this fact. Billions and billions of people throughout the history search for God not because they were mad but because God is part of human conscience. That is the reason when some serious calamity hits an atheist usually, his prayer starts with:

“O God! If you are really there …” or something like that.

Now, when trouble touches man, he cries to Us: But when We bestow a favour upon him as from Ourselves, he says, "This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge (I have)!" Nay, but this is but a trial, but most of them understand not!
Az-Zumar (39)
-Verse 49-

The prime mode of this prudential knowledge is self-awareness, and every being existing in itself which is capable of self-awareness is a pure and simple light, as evinced by the pellucid clarity with which it is manifest to itself. In fact, being a pure and simple light is precisely the same as having self-awareness, and this is true of all self-aware entities up to and including God, the Light of Lights, the intensity of whose illumination and self-awareness encompasses everything else. The main constituent of reality is the hierarchies of such pure lights, differing solely in the intensity of their Illumination, and thus of self-awareness

I struggle to draw any meaning from the above paragraph. I suspect it might be waffle.

It’s true when our understandings can’t encompass the meanings of some text we normally say “all it is gibberish”.

Let me simplify this paragraph for you:

We are able to reflect on our own desires and evaluate ourselves in terms of some larger vision of what our lives are adding up to. In this sense, we transcend our own being as mere things. What is characteristic of our being as humans is that we care about the kinds of beings we are, and we therefore take a stand on our basic desires. Awareness is self-luminous.

Nature is self-evident for anyone who is sentient and keen about it. Quran attracts attention towards the common sense nature that can easily be perceived by the common sense faculties of man. Quran helps an endeavouring person and reveals common truths to the eye of his consciousness.

More waffle. I want hard facts and evidence based research, not anecdote and personal testimonies.

It’s true when our understandings can’t encompass the meanings of some text we normally say “all it is gibberish”.

Let me simplify this paragraph for you:

We are able to reflect on our own desires and evaluate ourselves in terms of some larger vision of what our lives are adding up to. In this sense, we transcend our own being as mere things. What is characteristic of our being as humans is that we care about the kinds of beings we are, and we therefore take a stand on our basic desires. Awareness is self-luminous.

Quran invites people to ponder over the nature because understanding of nature is the right path to the understanding of God.

Waffle.

What is nonsense if Quran asks you to ponder over Nature and on its functioning?

You can ponder in procedural manner or use your abstraction but main idea what Quran pushes in our minds is to have contemplation over nature. Unfortunately, mostly, we go over the nature with closed eyes. We only look at nature when there is something relevant to our pleasure and joy.

It is He Who has created for you (the faculties of) hearing, sight, feeling and understanding: little thanks it is ye give!
Al Mu'minuun (23)
-Verse 78-

The exquisiteness of Quran is in its text. The text is so eloquent that it does not demand any scholarly background from a person to understand this message, yet scholars cannot comprehend scopes of its meanings in totality.

Waffle.

The eloquence of the words is irrelevent to the substance behind them, of which currently, there is none aside the meaningless spiritual revelation of believers. Nothing tangible.

Do you know Quran?
Are you familiar with the spirit of its text?

Quran is a kind of coded text written in such a way that it conveys its general message to everyone but it also reveals its hidden meanings, over people who are sentient contemplators.

The meanings of Quranic claims are typically concealed within the text rather than visible on its surface. The most plausible interpretation is that the text commends following nature as advantageous, but does not set it up as a moral imperative.

Nature could also be described as a divine text because it is composed of a complex set of interrelated parts all of which were designed by God to produce one coherent whole. The relations that obtain in nature are the result of the universal matter, or corporeal substance of the universe, considered as it is contrived in the present structure and constitution of the world, whereby all bodies, that compose it, are enabled to act upon, and fitted to suffer from one another. The perfection of the world is an intercourse and harmony between truths. We must attempt to discover the connection of physical truths, and the relations that material bodies have to one another and thus the interpretation of nature would require the same type of reconciliation process that Quran had recommended for our thoughts.

Notice, though, that if you abandon (only based on your disbeliefs) your empirical studies and interpretive analytical approach altogether, this practice would abandon the usual or conventional ways of your thinking. This would lead you nowhere but to the ignorance.

Quran does not require us to abandon our reason: we can never deceive reason, nor can reason ever deceive us. Accordingly, there is fundamental agreement between reason and revelation, not in the sense that revelation can ever be replaced by reason, but rather that the right use of reason leads us to accept revelation and that revelation in turn is never contrary to reason.

What does this even mean? I'm struggling to understand anything youre writing. The only thing required to make a baby is sperm and an egg. But I don't see the relevance?

After sperm and egg mingled together does some clever guy starts weaving the human body in the womb of mother? Is not human body evolved in mother’s womb according to predefined processes of nature? Are those predefined codes of commands were written by some scientist or engineer? Look at any natural process everything obeys strict procedural laws. Your life itself is subject to these strict procedural laws. You can’t escape process of your aging. It is definite and prudent. Our maximum effort is sowing a seed in the womb of earth to have fruits or herbs. Further, everything happened according to fixed code of intelligent instructions, which controls the growth, and flourish particular plant or tree in a specific manner. Each natural law is a code of intelligent instructions, which is controlling the beginning, the existence, and the death of everything that exists. These intelligent instructions are so accurate and precise that nothing has a chance to transgress form the fixed limitations that the code of commands has assigned them. Who has written all these intelligent codes if there is no God?

Is this an attempt at fine tuning? Please, fine tuning has been debunked so many times I feel silly for even writing about it. The universe is not fine tuned for us as a species. The fact we can only inhabit an infinitesimally small % of it should be testament to this. Really, this kind of just strikes me as confirmation bias, and seeing what you want to see because you believe what you see is true. And who said anything about controlling the universe?

Well! You see this infinitesimally small % as a testament to chance where I see it as a razors edge specifically defined for our intelligent life. Chance has no place in rational thinking and science. Chance mainly resides in our desires.

Evidence is provided to support claims in order to convince people of its legitimacy. I'm sure in your time you've benefitted from this process countless times in the fields of medicine, or in the general living of your life (you're benefitting from this process right now when you type on your PC/laptop).

Evidences, which are based on honesty and facts of nature, support claims of noble and honest men who assert them to convince people for the legitimacy of those claims. I respect and honour such personals who scarify their comfort for the general benefit of human beings.

Target of my statements is a crook who uses fallacies to prove his claim. We know there are many forms of fallacies, like:

AD HOMINEM
AFFIRMING THE CONSEQUENT
AD IGNORANTIAM
AD BACULUM
AD MISERICORDIAM
AD POPULUM
BEGGING THE QUESTION”
EQUIVOCATION
STRAW MAN
AD VERECUNDIAM

Crooks as deceptive tricks use all these fallacies when they argue with someone. They use these techniques deliberately to try to fool the counterparty into accepting a false conclusion. However, in some instances, these fallacies are simply careless errors in thinking. Sceptic is most favourable candidate for the use of fallacies.

Being skeptical of claims is a virtue. Blindly believing hogwash because you've been brought up/indoctrianted to believe it is a vice. The latter is an antithesis to the former. The former generates consistent results, the latter generates nothing.

I don’t understand why you atheists are so certain in your conclusions about God when science and materialism had already shown their imperfections. Maybe you are the one who have a blind faith about nonexistence of God. Perhaps you have rejected God because you can’t perceive him with your physical senses. However, if you can’t see your own self-conscious does that mean you are a person who has no self-conscious? Did you ever thought about the consequences if you found to be wrong and there is in fact a resurrection waiting for you.

What is interesting that most members of this forum are giving millions of excuses for not reading Quran but when it comes to criticise Quran they show a vigorous attitudes merely based on their credulities.

“If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition.”
Al Mu'minuun (23)
-Verse 71-

Waffle.

But really, none of what you have posted amounts to anything like evidence that the Quran is true or correct in any way, at least not in comparison to all the other holy books and tomes.
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The following verse is something you can never find in any other religious scripture of the world.

We send down (stage by stage) in the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust, it causes nothing but loss after loss.
Al Israa’ (17)
-Verse 82-

Disbeliever who is wronging himself by his disbelief, when he hears the Quran, it only makes him further from the truth and increases him in his disbelief. The problem lies with the disbeliever himself, not with the Quran.

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Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

Who is we, what is the definition of heavens? Is it the sky is it the galaxy, the universe is it heaven in the sense that christians see heaven?

“WE” is the royal “I”. It is like Queen of England who uses “We” in place of “I” to stress over her royal importance.

Our acquired knowledge has not reached to a level that we understand what exactly heaven is made of. What I personally understood from Quran is that heavens are material boundaries that encompass whole universe. These heavens came into being like stars out of dust and smoke and these are breakable entities like any solid wall. I don’t have any evidence to justify my ideas. Following verses has given me ideas on why I think about heavens this way.

Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) SMOKE: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
Fush Shilat (41)
-Verse 11-

And the sky will be rent ASUNDER, for it will that Day be flimsy,
Al Haaqqah (69)
-Verse 16-

Were they to see a piece of the sky falling (on them), they would (only) say: "CLOUDS GATHERED IN HEAPS!"
Ath-Thuur (52)
-Verse 44-

When the sky is rent ASUNDER, and it becomes red like ointment:
Ar Rahmaan (55)
-Verse 37-

Then watch thou for the Day that the sky will bring forth a kind of SMOKE plainly visible,
Ad Dukhaan (44)
-Verse 10-

You tell me what you guess this verse is talking about because I can only guess that you're repeating other islamic people and you're going to say this is talking about the big bang.

The big bang has nothing to do with the earth being clove asunder from the universe, this would be a really stupid description of the big bang.

You are trying to twist words here. It is not only earth that God has separated but also everything. The verse says:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?
Al Anbiyaa’ (21)
-Verse 30-

The text of this verse is precise in showing its meanings on the surface.

According to the model of Big Bang, matter, energy, and space were one unit before universe came into being. Quran used words that everything Were Joined Together (like one unit) whereas Modern physics named that Unit as Singularity. Hence, Quranic explication is in a perfect match with the exposition of modern physics.

So yes, you are correct based on the impeccable match between the statement of Quran and discovery of modern physics I am repeating what other Muslims are saying, this verse is talking about the Big Bang.

It’s not a Muslim’s guess it’s a fact that science has confirmed recently.

Instead you should do research on if it is a fact that skin is the only organ that senses "all the pain".

You have to read carefully what I am writing. I have never said that it is only skin that has sensation of pain. What I said people thought that whole body is responsible for the pain until science discovered that it is the only skin part which is responsible for burning or cutting sensation.

Previously I wrote that examples in Quran are based on common sense and there is no requirement for some scientific aid to understand their meanings. Those examples also contain hidden meanings, which revealed only when human intellect progress with the help of acquired knowledge. When Quran gives some example, it is only to highlight the importance of its commandments. It is not to explain the scientific fact.

Try researching if people feel pain in their stomach or bladder, and research what happens to things like stomachs and bladders if they were burned.

I totally agree with you that stomach also have sensation of burning and it is capable of giving nasty pain.

Look what Quran says:

Verily the tree of Zaqqum
Will be the food of the Sinful,-
Like molten brass; it will boil in their insides.
Like the boiling of scalding water.
Ad Dukhaan (44)
-Verses 43 – 46

The hidden meaning behind this threat has been discovered only recently; when scientists learnt that intestines are not affected by heat. However, if they are severed then the boiling water will flow to the place between the peritoneum and the outer layer of the intestines, the place which contains lots of nerve endings which are capable to transmit sensation of burning to the brain and thus cause an experience of atrocious pain.

So all these facts show the miraculous scientific nature of Quran that had given these facts to humankind long time before modern science had discovered them.

No I'm arguing that the quran has given you no information about unique fingerprints, the word unique isn't even in the verse and there is not even a hint towards the uniqueness.

It is actually like you have read a verse which says god will reconstruct peoples bodies even their fingertips, and then you have guessed that it is talking about the uniqueness of fingerprints.

Even after being told fingerprints aren't the only unique part of human bodies.

Even though the verse does not mention the word unique.

Even though the word prints or fingerprints isn't even used or hinted at whatsoever.

You are guessing.

You are really caught by these Fingertips.

You are correct that there is no mention of “Unique” and “Fingerprints” in the verse and fingerprints are not the sole unique part in human body. I rather complement that complete human body is unique.

If these words are not present in the verse or fingerprints are not the only unique part in the body. So what? Does that change the fact that fingertips have unique fingertips?

I can even exaggerate and say that fingerprints in fact are fingertips.

Let me give you another example
Let us say in a book it is written:

“Professor gave lecture to his students”.

Based on the above statement if I say, professor has more knowledge than his students do, in this case do you think I am guessing.

This is exactly what you are doing with fingerprints. You are trying to peel a hair. You are quarrelling and saying no no there is no mention of “knowledge” in the book therefore, you are guessing that professor has more knowledge.

When Quran stated about perfection of fingertips this perfection covers everything concerning fingertips without mentioning the intricate details. I don’t need to guess that professor has more knowledge then his students. I simply know it. Previously an ignorant man did not know what is professor but now it is a universal fact that professor knows more than his students.

I repeat again that human genes are ape genes we are apes.

What molecular evidence have you been looking for in your research?

Like theory of evolution is trying to give group classification to different living species, molecular biology is building different classes of genes. This sortation is helpful for the exploration and investigation purposes.

No matter if you say that lion’s genes are cat’s genes, nowhere in molecular biology has it been proven that lion’s genes in fact evolved from cat’s genes. By principles of grouping if even human genes are classified as ape genes that does not means human genes are evolved from ape’s genes.

Theory of evolution has no scientific grounds and many eminent scientists (including noble prize-winners) have written strong critiques against this theory. In my opinion, theory of classification is a more appropriate name instead of theory of evolution as theory of evolution only gives a procedure for making groups among different species and for that, “classification” is more appropriate word.

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Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Quran 75:4)

This is the information given to you by the quran.

Yes, it is the information given to everyone by Quran.

If this verse is true then you know for sure that

1. There is a god.
2. He can put together in perfect order the tips of the fingers.

Indeed, this verse is from God and you are correct in mentioning point 1 and point 2.

This is the information provided.

The information which you have guessed the verse is telling you.

Fingerprints are unique in every person in the world.

I am not guessing. I simply know like everyone else knows it.

Now you have used the comparison

Comparison is all what I am doing.

It is nothing like this, there is nothing within the words

See above for example of professor and students.

put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. that describes even a hint of uniqueness.The quran describes an order to the fingertips, I'll give you that point.

Fingerprints are embedded in the order of fingertips.

But in no way is this miraculous, I've already shown that civilizations knew about fingerprints and that they were complex and had some order to them.

And I already shown you that civilizations were ignorant about the uniqueness of fingerprints until it has been discovered by Frances Galt. Ancient civilizations were using fingerprints as a royal symbol or something similar to that; they were not using fingerprints to catch their criminals.

If you continue to try and tell me that a verse which doesn't even mention uniqueness, doesn't mention prints, and especially doesn't mention fingerprints being unique for every single person in the world is a message from muhammad about fingerprints being unique for everyone in the world all it is going to do is make me doubt how logical you are towards any other topic of discussion.

I have already given you one more logical and rational example of a professor and his students.