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Terrible Atheist Argument #1
#51
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1
I'm aware of modal axiom S5, it's the logic of possibility and necessity. Though I'll admit I'm not really familiar with this system and its axioms in regards to usage.

The main problem ontological arguments in this logical system (aside from the one I already mentioned, i.e counter modal arguments) is that they get hopelessly tied into knots by confusing epistemic possibility with metaphysical possibility, and this makes holding to this argument as not being useless indefensible. Basically, "epistemic possibility" can be boiled down to "possible as far as I know", while "metaphysical possibility" is basically "actually possible".

The problem is that Plantinga's modal ontological argument is that all we have to go on is the epistemic possibilty that God could possibly exist. For all we know, God's attributes could be incoherent, either alone or if possessed in tandem, thus voiding the argument. Now, your response might be something like "You can reject anything like that." THAT'S THE POINT. I can run just as strong a modal argument for the truth of atheism:

Modal Ontological Argument for Atheism Wrote:P1) If metaphysical naturalism is possibly true, it is true and God does not exist.

P2) Metaphysical naturalism is possibly true.

C) Therefore, metaphysical naturalism is true and God does not exist.

Have I established the metaphysical truth of metaphysical naturalism? Do you accept it?
The ONLY way to refute this argument is to appeal to an inherent contradiction in the concept of metaphysical naturalism (or deny the first premise, but it seems self-evidently true). And that's exactly what one does with Plantinga's argument. This argument makes a stalemate with Plantinga's, demonstrating that the ontological argument is entirely useless. It makes no sense at all to treat an argument style that can only end in a stalemate with it's opposition as good.
"The reason things will never get better is because people keep electing these rich cocksuckers who don't give a shit about you."
-George Carlin
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Messages In This Thread
Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 6, 2013 at 10:42 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Minimalist - November 6, 2013 at 11:08 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Sejanus - November 6, 2013 at 11:26 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Brakeman - November 6, 2013 at 11:33 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 12, 2013 at 10:18 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Esquilax - November 12, 2013 at 10:50 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Ryantology - November 13, 2013 at 3:02 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Bob Kelso - November 6, 2013 at 11:37 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Ryantology - November 7, 2013 at 1:09 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by max-greece - November 7, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Esquilax - November 7, 2013 at 5:13 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by pocaracas - November 7, 2013 at 6:51 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 7, 2013 at 10:35 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Minimalist - November 7, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by WesOlsen - November 7, 2013 at 3:02 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by catfish - November 7, 2013 at 3:16 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by downbeatplumb - November 7, 2013 at 3:20 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by catfish - November 7, 2013 at 3:22 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Ayen - November 7, 2013 at 3:43 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 7, 2013 at 3:07 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Angrboda - November 9, 2013 at 3:08 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Esquilax - November 9, 2013 at 3:13 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Ayen - November 9, 2013 at 4:07 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Lemonvariable72 - November 18, 2013 at 3:04 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by WesOlsen - November 7, 2013 at 3:36 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by catfish - November 7, 2013 at 3:47 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Jackalope - November 7, 2013 at 3:52 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Optimistic Mysanthrope - November 7, 2013 at 3:45 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by WesOlsen - November 7, 2013 at 3:58 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by catfish - November 7, 2013 at 4:14 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Doubting Thomas - November 7, 2013 at 3:59 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Faith No More - November 7, 2013 at 4:24 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Simon Moon - November 7, 2013 at 4:33 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Whateverist - November 7, 2013 at 7:07 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by pocaracas - November 7, 2013 at 7:43 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Jackalope - November 7, 2013 at 7:45 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by paulpablo - November 7, 2013 at 9:31 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by genkaus - November 8, 2013 at 4:18 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 12, 2013 at 10:33 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 13, 2013 at 5:35 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Esquilax - November 13, 2013 at 6:02 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by pocaracas - November 13, 2013 at 9:46 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 19, 2013 at 1:55 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 20, 2013 at 4:31 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Zen Badger - November 13, 2013 at 5:55 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 19, 2013 at 1:20 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Esquilax - November 19, 2013 at 2:47 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by KichigaiNeko - November 13, 2013 at 5:56 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Mister Agenda - November 13, 2013 at 5:25 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by CapnAwesome - November 14, 2013 at 12:43 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 20, 2013 at 7:44 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 20, 2013 at 8:41 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 20, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 22, 2013 at 2:07 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 22, 2013 at 10:53 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 22, 2013 at 10:09 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 22, 2013 at 11:02 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 29, 2013 at 3:19 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Statler Waldorf - November 20, 2013 at 9:11 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MitchBenn - November 20, 2013 at 9:35 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Statler Waldorf - November 21, 2013 at 5:51 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Whateverist - November 21, 2013 at 6:36 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 21, 2013 at 3:27 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 21, 2013 at 6:46 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Statler Waldorf - November 22, 2013 at 7:13 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Whateverist - November 24, 2013 at 8:32 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 22, 2013 at 6:06 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 22, 2013 at 7:45 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Statler Waldorf - November 22, 2013 at 8:05 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 24, 2013 at 12:20 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by repentsinners - November 24, 2013 at 11:49 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by downbeatplumb - November 24, 2013 at 1:26 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by pocaracas - November 24, 2013 at 2:09 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Lemonvariable72 - November 24, 2013 at 4:20 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by pocaracas - November 24, 2013 at 4:36 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Yahweh - November 24, 2013 at 3:19 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 24, 2013 at 3:28 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Yahweh - November 24, 2013 at 3:37 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Statler Waldorf - November 26, 2013 at 3:11 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Mister Agenda - November 26, 2013 at 4:27 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Statler Waldorf - November 26, 2013 at 5:31 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 26, 2013 at 9:28 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by WesOlsen - November 27, 2013 at 8:10 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by WesOlsen - November 27, 2013 at 10:45 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by WesOlsen - November 29, 2013 at 4:15 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 29, 2013 at 4:43 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by houseofcantor - November 29, 2013 at 5:55 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by WesOlsen - November 29, 2013 at 7:11 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 29, 2013 at 10:49 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 29, 2013 at 5:58 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - November 29, 2013 at 9:55 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - December 3, 2013 at 12:26 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - December 3, 2013 at 12:54 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - December 3, 2013 at 1:04 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - December 3, 2013 at 1:44 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - December 3, 2013 at 3:03 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - December 3, 2013 at 3:34 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - December 3, 2013 at 4:04 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - December 3, 2013 at 8:37 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - December 4, 2013 at 9:51 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - December 5, 2013 at 10:40 am
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - December 5, 2013 at 3:58 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - December 5, 2013 at 5:08 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - December 5, 2013 at 11:50 pm
RE: Terrible Atheist Argument #1 - by MindForgedManacle - December 7, 2013 at 6:20 pm

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