Wow, things have come along a bit. Bozo, I don't want to fall out. We can all be blunt but let's try and remain civil for the sake of 'truth'.
Luke, you said:
''Okay, life gives these laws a purpose (upholding life), but what purpose does life have? Thes laws don't add anything to the purpose of a human, they just make it possible for a human to survive. Where is the purpose coming from for us?''
I drew a comparison between the laws and purpose which was silly really. Purpose is more an abstract thing, but nevertheless as real as the laws. I have a purpose to get up in the morning because I have things to look forward to (opening my pressies), giving my partner a big kiss. Looking after my baby grandson maybe). We fill our lives with purpose. We create purposes. (One person's purpose is another's waste of time, I know.) We need to be motivated to do anything: hunger pains remind us to eat (not that I need reminding). Sex is very enjoyable, loving someone makes you feel warm, safe, contented etc so purpose is a natural part of life. Without it we would not have direction, or boundaries maybe?? All I know is, we all seem to want purpose in our lives. We would rather do a job that has meaning, instead of a 9-5 mind numbing factory type job. So life is 'purpose' maybe. I would say 'purpose' is necessary to life.
The purpose of life, I think is to be part of and experience the universe:consciousness, loving, reproducing, working. We are all 'sparks of a fire-work display'. You need all the sparks to see the overall effects of the display. We all intereact with each other and hopefully will make some amazing displays of our own.... Maybe we could sum it up as CONTRIBUTION. OUr purpose is to contribute to the universe.
''I'm retracting my statement. I have a new road to go down... Pain is a result of nerve stimulus and such things, not the direct interaction of some being. So lets leave that aside. ''
I'll just say quickly that pain is necessary in this physical world. Without it we would die. It is a 'brake' for us, if you like. I said it must be a necessary ingredient and it is for physical reasons. The same applies for emotional or moral reasons. We can suffer pain if we do something wrong e.g kill someone, cheat on someone. Hit someone, or someone being rude to you
Pain seems to be the result of something going wrong.
''Instead, I ask why people are given the choice to do wrong? If there is no afterlife, then there is no reward for the good, no punishment for the bad.''
We need to know both right and wrong in order to appreciate why 'wrong' is wrong. If I leave Christianity out of it and just consider this force or being, then all these things: choice, right, wrong are an integral part of the universe. All possibilities exist. Variations of doing things exist. We are not born with all the facts. We have to learn and we make many mistakes. A baby wants to touch the flame. You can't convey to it why it shouldn't. Either it will learn the hard way or it's hand will get close enough to realise the danger before it gets hurt. I might like the idea of having three husbands. Just think what a great time I could have, but then there could come into it very bad things, jealousies, violence, who knows what else? Many things are possible and we can choose to do something and invariably we learn the hard way, but hopefully we do learn.
There is no afterlife whre we go on living after we die. When we die that's it. The claim of Christianity is that Jesus has the power to bring you back to life in a new form that is incorruptible, no longer prone to decay but is still 'you'. It also claims that people will be punished for wrong doing. (If we do something wrong in our society, society will punish us. ) Jesus' corrective punishment will not involve sadistic torture. In what way is that corrective? Rather, through love, people will learn the 'truth' and come to terms with the choices of right and wrong. (I'm looking into a branch of Christianity that believes everyone will be forgiven, although still punished, so no one will be lost). If I'd never heard of Jesus and I'm just considering this force or being, I would probably conclude that when we die we become part of the universe. Our bodies rot down etc. I would have no cause to think I'd live again.
''The bad people ruin the lives of the good people and get away with it. Does this benevolent force find it acceptable that it has created people who are only going to be put through pain by other people? Why didn't it instead create the universe in a way that we would evolve altruistic characteristics long before we were capable of harnassing evil? This way, it would have created a lovely place where people help oneanother instead of killing an dhurting.''
Bad only comes into existence by actions. It isn't some 'force' of itself. In my life and my own experience I strive to lead a good life and not let 'evil' get the better of me. By that I mean I try to turn the other cheek. I try to not be selfish. Yes evil may happen to me against my wishes. This is one of the hardest things to accept. We are learning what choices result in 'bad', just as evolution is supposedly learning by its mistakes.
''The benevolence of this force is now in question, as it is behaving rather unbenevolently. Unless it rewards the good people? Does it? If not, can you still call it benevolent.''
The 'force' allows the universe to evolve and adapt, and for us to learn. You may call that unbenevolent. The fact that pain and suffering exist does throw a big spanner in the works, I admit. I don't think their existence throw's doubt in the force/creator's existence. This 'being' if it exists, must be what it must be- in that the laws must be what they are for all of this to exist. The potential for evil exists and must be a necessary part of the equation. Let's hope it gets cancelled out at some point?
Luke, you said:
''Okay, life gives these laws a purpose (upholding life), but what purpose does life have? Thes laws don't add anything to the purpose of a human, they just make it possible for a human to survive. Where is the purpose coming from for us?''
I drew a comparison between the laws and purpose which was silly really. Purpose is more an abstract thing, but nevertheless as real as the laws. I have a purpose to get up in the morning because I have things to look forward to (opening my pressies), giving my partner a big kiss. Looking after my baby grandson maybe). We fill our lives with purpose. We create purposes. (One person's purpose is another's waste of time, I know.) We need to be motivated to do anything: hunger pains remind us to eat (not that I need reminding). Sex is very enjoyable, loving someone makes you feel warm, safe, contented etc so purpose is a natural part of life. Without it we would not have direction, or boundaries maybe?? All I know is, we all seem to want purpose in our lives. We would rather do a job that has meaning, instead of a 9-5 mind numbing factory type job. So life is 'purpose' maybe. I would say 'purpose' is necessary to life.
The purpose of life, I think is to be part of and experience the universe:consciousness, loving, reproducing, working. We are all 'sparks of a fire-work display'. You need all the sparks to see the overall effects of the display. We all intereact with each other and hopefully will make some amazing displays of our own.... Maybe we could sum it up as CONTRIBUTION. OUr purpose is to contribute to the universe.
''I'm retracting my statement. I have a new road to go down... Pain is a result of nerve stimulus and such things, not the direct interaction of some being. So lets leave that aside. ''
I'll just say quickly that pain is necessary in this physical world. Without it we would die. It is a 'brake' for us, if you like. I said it must be a necessary ingredient and it is for physical reasons. The same applies for emotional or moral reasons. We can suffer pain if we do something wrong e.g kill someone, cheat on someone. Hit someone, or someone being rude to you
Pain seems to be the result of something going wrong. ''Instead, I ask why people are given the choice to do wrong? If there is no afterlife, then there is no reward for the good, no punishment for the bad.''
We need to know both right and wrong in order to appreciate why 'wrong' is wrong. If I leave Christianity out of it and just consider this force or being, then all these things: choice, right, wrong are an integral part of the universe. All possibilities exist. Variations of doing things exist. We are not born with all the facts. We have to learn and we make many mistakes. A baby wants to touch the flame. You can't convey to it why it shouldn't. Either it will learn the hard way or it's hand will get close enough to realise the danger before it gets hurt. I might like the idea of having three husbands. Just think what a great time I could have, but then there could come into it very bad things, jealousies, violence, who knows what else? Many things are possible and we can choose to do something and invariably we learn the hard way, but hopefully we do learn.
There is no afterlife whre we go on living after we die. When we die that's it. The claim of Christianity is that Jesus has the power to bring you back to life in a new form that is incorruptible, no longer prone to decay but is still 'you'. It also claims that people will be punished for wrong doing. (If we do something wrong in our society, society will punish us. ) Jesus' corrective punishment will not involve sadistic torture. In what way is that corrective? Rather, through love, people will learn the 'truth' and come to terms with the choices of right and wrong. (I'm looking into a branch of Christianity that believes everyone will be forgiven, although still punished, so no one will be lost). If I'd never heard of Jesus and I'm just considering this force or being, I would probably conclude that when we die we become part of the universe. Our bodies rot down etc. I would have no cause to think I'd live again.
''The bad people ruin the lives of the good people and get away with it. Does this benevolent force find it acceptable that it has created people who are only going to be put through pain by other people? Why didn't it instead create the universe in a way that we would evolve altruistic characteristics long before we were capable of harnassing evil? This way, it would have created a lovely place where people help oneanother instead of killing an dhurting.''
Bad only comes into existence by actions. It isn't some 'force' of itself. In my life and my own experience I strive to lead a good life and not let 'evil' get the better of me. By that I mean I try to turn the other cheek. I try to not be selfish. Yes evil may happen to me against my wishes. This is one of the hardest things to accept. We are learning what choices result in 'bad', just as evolution is supposedly learning by its mistakes.
''The benevolence of this force is now in question, as it is behaving rather unbenevolently. Unless it rewards the good people? Does it? If not, can you still call it benevolent.''
The 'force' allows the universe to evolve and adapt, and for us to learn. You may call that unbenevolent. The fact that pain and suffering exist does throw a big spanner in the works, I admit. I don't think their existence throw's doubt in the force/creator's existence. This 'being' if it exists, must be what it must be- in that the laws must be what they are for all of this to exist. The potential for evil exists and must be a necessary part of the equation. Let's hope it gets cancelled out at some point?
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"
Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein
