Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[bennyboy]

The same argument has been made for slavery. Have you asked the animals how THEY feel

Have you?

Could I have sex with a mute girl, on the grounds she couldn't verbalize her lack of complicity? Could I bring home a bush man to be my slave, on the grounds that he didn't tell me in English that he didn't want to do it? No. If I'm unable to get a POSITIVE statement of permission, then I have to assume any act that affects the wellbeing of another is going to be unwanted.

about being locked up, force-fed and killed at the height of their health? Consider the possibility that there's a serious conflict of interest involved, in having people who want to eat animals being the sole determiners of the morality of doing so.

Would you still feel that way if the choice wasn't yours? What, for example, if the government decided 70 years is old enough, and a team of qualified professionals threw you onto a truck for your "painless euthanasia " against your will?

Not a valid comparison at all. You are talking about animals like they are humans. Like they understand what is going on around them. As if they have the power of humans to infer and imagine from what is happening around them. To feel fear and apprehension. The truth is, they are ignorant of that. And ignorance is bliss.

I don't know what animals feel, or other people for that matter. I know what I feel, and I look to other organisms for similarity. I'm a person, and so the similarities to other people, I assume, are very high: I believe most people feel as I do, fear (for the most part) pain and death, etc. Mammals and birds have similar brain function, and behave in recognizable enough ways, that I can infer their feelings about many things, as well.

Cows obviously are not going to get into a tormented state because of upcoming finals or something. But it's obvious that mammals and birds, at least, can experience pain and fear. They breathe heavily, get wild-looking eyes, and if able to move, will avoid things they find unpleasant or threatening. I've seen pigs', cows' and birds' behavior alter when they are in situations I would find stressful (like being led into an enclosed space, or being hit), and so I find it most likely that they are actually experiencing stress, i.e. they are suffering.

I don't see how a sensible person, with knowledge of the human and non-human mammal brains' similarities, or experience with a pet or with farm animals, could see it any other way.

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Are you arguing against the mistreatment of animals on factory farms or against killing animals at all?

They are not the same thing.

And your vision of happy animals in the wild is not accurate.
Their lives can be nasty, brutish, and short; their deaths are usually violent.

Nature is cruel. People can choose not to be-- it is not necessary for us to deputize ourselves as the species embodiment of that violence.

We build giant buildings towering into the air, trains that can run at hundreds of miles per hour, and computer systems that can hold the entire text of all books written during all time.

But when it comes to eating meat, suddenly nature is nature, and there's nothing to be done about it.

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Secondly, I would argue that life on a farm is far worse. At least in the wild I have a rich and complex environment to explore. On a farm it its monotonous, with every single young animal forcibly removed from its mother. Overfed and over weight, in a dense population were disease is easily spread. Udder infections branding, dehorning, clipping of the chickens beak. Its a horrible life. At least as a wild animals I have a chance.

You have clearly anthropomorphised animals. You are in no position at all to argue this argument.

Lastly, you say that your obsession with meat is not an obsession because it is natural and normal. Sounds like two fallacies in one sentence. Appeal to the people, and to nature.

You are just being dense now. Does the chimpanzee have an obsession with meat because it can eat both meat and plants but sometimes chooses to eat meat? What about the brown bear?
They are omnivores because they require both meat and plant matter. A human is also an omnivore, meaning that eating meat is completely natural and not an obsession, we evolved to do this. A human with an obsession over meat would probably only eat meat..... in fact, I don't even know what an obsession with meat would look like? It is very clear that you have an obsession, of what, i don't know yet.

wtf?

I didn't say any of those things. I prefer you quote things I've actually said.